Vampire Sites

http://www.satannet.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=347350#Post347350

"Satanism is a materialistic Religion emphasizing the carnal.
Why would we associate with otherworldly, mystical, spiritual, or so-called transcendental religions?
They have NOTHING to offer us and we have NO use for them.
So the answer to your question is NO."



Well?

And in the thread linked to by Mr. Rupert he shoots himself in the foot by quoting:

"Should someone who once joined decide that his concept of Satanism is somehow different, then he is in fact resigning himself from the organization through his personal choice to adopt a differing definition, a de facto embracing of some other position which is not Satanism as established by Dr. LaVey. This is a disaffiliation on a truly fundamental level, not requiring any formal expulsion, for the individual in question has intellectually abandoned the tenets that are required for his membership to be valid."

"a differing definition, a de facto embracing of some other position which is not Satanism as established by Dr. LaVey."



Thank you Nemo for making a fool of yourself. Guess you're not a member of the CoS then.

That's Nemo shooting himself in the foot, not Mr. Rupert. I spotted that one after I pressed submit. My apologies.

Mr. Sand, your posts are classic, like one of the many classics on my shelf, a collection worthy of taking to a desert island. I'm going to look for some more classic examples of our favorite foot-shooter.

In your link Mr. Sand, Nemo says: "You might just find something very fulfilling and useful as a consequence.

Most truly effective secrets are "open" secrets. They are in plain view but require some effort to be useful.

That is certainly true here."

Never quits with the sales pitch, he seems to speak with a tone that shows no concern of ever being outted as a fraud.

Anybody ever heard of this?

http://www.nouveautechsociety.com/

Multi-Level Marketing scam dressed up as a secret society. Started by a guy who goes by the name Mark Hamilton (just an alias), do some research on it, you will be shocked to see how much it resembles the ToV and Mr. Nemo.

Presently Nemo is scouring his "LifeForce Forum" to do some "end of the year house cleaning" as he puts it. He basically told the non-active registered members that if you are just hanging out and not becoming an active paying member(at 100 dollars per year), your account with the forum just might be deleted.
I wonder if he will really do this, or, it just could be a pressure tactic for forum members.

Remember: a non-active registered member of the ToV has already given money for not only the ToV Bible, but possibly also money for the other few thin books and the ToV bling offered at high prices.

Obviously this is not good enough - thus the forum "house cleaning".

So actually the forum is not a forum at all (being a tool for the exchange of ideas).
It is in reality a money funneling device for the deluded Satanist and non-Satanist alike.

Wow, so it's basically it's more to be part of the Lifeforce Forum than Ventrue's forum. Nemo, the high-pressure salesman! Ventrue has a pretty good handle on the Forum thing with LTTD, too bad he doesn't just kick Lifeforce to the curb once and for all.

What I would like to know if has anybody (other than the obvious) ever really benefited Monetarily from an idea(s) born amongst the ToV boards, or has anybody ever been cured from a disease or sickness by a method presented by a ToV representative "Undead God" or has anybody ever been levitated while contacting an "Undead God" or am I missing the whole metaphor completely!? I think that this is a situation in which there are a bunch of people waiting for something amazing to happen, in the meantime they are paying to wait? Is it because Nemo makes it worth the wait.

Part 1:

Most of what I gleaned from the Temple was not new or unique knowledge. Nemo, is right, most of these so-called secrets the Temple is selling are

Part 2:

I also think Nemo

MLM, excellent insight! So in short, the ToV is a transcendental religion with an emphasis on otherworldly, mystical, spiritual beliefs. In my opinion this is Bunko, and has no place in the realm of the CoS. To add to that, any CoS member who flys a ToV link in there signature is a hypocrite and has technically declared themselves a non-member.

I have heard that Rex Church is a ToV participant, if true, I wonder if he is an active participant or is his affiliation merely for promotional purposes. I find the notion of Rex Church participating in a conversation about "Vampire Jesus" a little hard to swallow.

I noticed Nemo relies primarily on ethos in discussions and is rather weak in logos and reference use. He has a tendency to try and discredit opponents when in the defensive, the tone depending on wether or not he has support from his peers.

More material could be useful for verifying those patterns. Use of insults, namecalling, quotes, legal disclaimers, etc. Unless of course, he varies his language pattern, rhetoric style and reference sources with each callname... Like some of us do.

Mr. Sand, I agree with your observation of Nemo's inability to site reference in discussion. I also noticed that he very much so relies on ethos in his typical response. I have also observed that a majority of his interactions have a promotional overtone to them, not always the same objective but definately prevalent. This would validate your point in that promotion is not reference based.
Here is an example of what I would consider a Nemo promotional interaction, the objective is rather obvious.
http://www.satannet.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=364176&page=3

The next one is not completely and example of being in defense but it contains a few messages that in my opinion best describe Nemo's undermining qualities.
http://www.satannet.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=363390&page=4

This one is full of Nemo's business plan, besides the book, which I'm sure he considers to be a Satanic Reference, I read in a couple of sentences what I interpret as his true intention.
http://www.satannet.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=358693&Searchpage=1&Main=34536&Words=nemo&Search=true#Post358693

Here is a strong example of an ethos based response. Understandably, the act of spoon-feeding information to the curious is frowned upon but you would expect a more distinguished response from somebody with such a prestigious title.

http://www.satannet.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=354288&page=2

Is that a dagger I see before me? The handle toward my hand?

You, sir, may have handed me a splendid dirk.
http://www.satannet.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=358693&Searchpage=1&Main=34536&Words=nemo&Search=true#Post358693

More specifically:

"The truly super-sneaky Satanist would have milked the flock you gathered and kept the secret of his true views to himself."

And further on.

"More practically, since you feel bad about converting people to a view you now see as wrong, instead of fighting the emotion try instead to enjoy feeling deliciously evil about it."

Then the question is, if Nemo is a supersneaky satanist milking a flock of vampire wannabes. Or is he just using CoS as his fishing pond?

In any case, he must be feeling deliciously evil right now, though I have difficulties coping with words like "Nemo" and "delicious" in the same sentence.

I just remembered something. On page 6 in this blog, Scott presented a letter alledgedly from Nemo, which among other things states:

"I just returned from London where I participated in a delightful banquet held in Sir Dashwood's Hellfire Caves where Benjamin Franklin so often found amusement."

Then I look at "Johnny, we hardly knew ye."
http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/US/gacy237.htm

Here he tells us:

"I was dating a so-called "Riot Grrrl" (an ardent female fan of heavy metal music, who often dressed in black clothes and combat boots)"

"All the women were luridly good-looking and eager for action..."

"My companion(s) and I would fly to St. Louis on Saturday morning, shack up at the Embassy Suites on the waterfront and "party hearty" on Saturday night. A nightclub called Mississippi Nights across the street from the hotel always had good beer and decent bands, some of them well-known groups such as Gwar. I always drove a Cadillac, and after several hours at the club, we

Mr. Sand, would you confer that there is a way to douse a fire, whether from without or within, like Essays in.....a diabolical tone. I have a key to the lock below, it may fit your ring. To pass this key in the am would be alarming, I thought under the cover of dark in the PM would be more charming.

"TO thE exteNt WE areE our TRUe SeLVeS we haVE A dEEp REvUlsion To the CULtUrE Of MaNipuLAtIoN AnD EveryTHINg In US TELLS us Not tO BECoME oneOF IT's PraACtitioneRS aND we seE The reGreSsive radICalISM ofFered bY muCH oF Popular cultuRE AS a lure alL THOSE FoRbiDDeN FanTAsieS ARE foRms of regression that lead us away from our true selves."

Revision to the lock above!

"TO thE exteNt WE arE our TRUe SeLVeS we haVE A dEEp REvUlsion To the CULtUrE Of MaNipuLAtIoN AnD EveryTHINg In US TELLS us Not tO BECoME oneOF IT's PraACtitioneRS aND we seE The reGreSsive radICalISM ofFered bY muCH oF Popular cultuRE AS a lure alL THOSE FoRbiDDeN FanTAsieS ARE foRms of regression that lead us away from our true selves."

There are some who are serious in their investigation and analysis of Nemo's intentions.
Too bad the focus often strays from the ToV into lame speculations, alledged 'facts' and rants that has nothing to do with constructive inquiry or the ToV at all.
Maybe someone who was deep into the ToV and has backed out can shed light on the hoax angle of that religion. Until that time, we will be submitted to nothing but speculation and annoying crap that others post here.

What is it in fact that you are refering too? Is there something here that hasn't lived up to the kind of detailed analysis that you have provided or are willing to provide Mr. BlackBeak. Detailed investigation goes beyond witness account, character analyzation plays a major role in identifying a person's intentions.

Perhaps a network of our own, for the purpose of infiltration and or fact gathering is appropriate.

Perhaps Mr. BlackBeak is content with shaking his fists with impotent rage out of sight of his peers.

I apologize for giving the impression of wishing t right wrongs and aiding the meek in this matter. My interests here are sporadic and fickle at best, fueled by nothing but curiousity and the occational spark of malice.

If I have been of assistance to anyone with the resolve and guile to put my rants and speculations to good use, then that is fine by me. Noone paid for it and thus shouldn't be whining if they find it lame or random.

If people enjoy their apathy and selfdeceptions, then be my guest.

I agree, my life goes on. Although, in this little amount of malice I have found some fun in keeping a few off balance. I personally would go to further lengths to make the off-balance fall further to their knees. Mr. Sand, it is always a pleasure mixing it up, I will be here.

Temple of the Vampire.
So far the only thing uncovered on this "hoax forum" is the concept that the ToV is a secret society that is unashamedly promoted by a man named Nemo.
Whether it's the Pope or the Witches, or the UFO Brethren, and you live in this capitalist land called Amerika, all groups whore themselves in one way or another. Every time you hit this web site, the owner can hear "cha-ching". That's Show Bizz folks.

As far as coming up with any solid facts and/or evidence that proves the ToV to be a 'hoax', nothing has materialized. Zilch. Nada.

When it comes to belief systems, you can talk until you are blue in the face to convince a believer that they are wrong.

Wrong and right are totally irrelevant. It all boils down to: "Does it work for me and not harm others?"
If I want to believe that I am a Vampire or a Man from Mars, this is your problem if you can't deal with it. If you can't have any respect or open mindedness about the diversity in the world then, fuck you. Stay at the bottom of the food chain.

Thanks for the rant.

If one believes they are a man from Mars or some creature out of a horror flick then they may have some

Private:

You seem to assume I belong to the ToV. I don't. Never did. Never will.
Obviously you took my post as a personal assault of some sort or you would not be including me in your present tirade against the ToV.

You claim I "must not be of much class or status."
Uh huh. Right.
What is your class and status, besides your own profuse questioning and whining (while claiming others are doing the whining)?

I was stating my opinion which is: nobody on this site has proved the ToV to be anything other than a money making secret club of people who want to agree on the same mystical mumbo jumbo.

My opinion is also that people can be and think what they want as long as it doesn't harm others.
My opinion is that I am intolerant of intolerance - thus the 'food chain' and 'fuck you' comment of my previous post.

I agree with your point that you have a right to doubt the claims of the ToV.
Just don't use your paranoid delusion of me attacking you as fodder for your posts. Use someone else ok?

Mr. Private, I commend your words, I view Mr. Hocus Pocus to be an Intellectual Black-Hole, as he has no idea to what the issue actually is.

Thanks for taking up for me Rupert, I admit that I responded in haste and jumped to conclusions about this poster.

Also, this poster may not be aware that I was a former member of this cult.

And I am not going to waste time arguing with Hocus Pocus either and will ignore him or her.

Speaking in general and not to anyone directly, I also find it annoying that in today's overly PC society that people do not tolerate any form of criticism against a religion and act all high and mighty when one does.

I am sick of people telling me that I should respect all religions and never speak bad of any religion. Why should I respect anything that I do not believe in or agree with or do not like?

If religions are the "one true way" then what others say negative about their religion or beliefs should not bother the overly sensitive adherants.

No one can take criticism in today's PC pussywhipped society. What happened to sticks and stones but words will never harm me? People act like words kill them today.

I am for freedom or religion.

And I also think adherants need to be tolerant of my criticisms and respect my freedom of speech.

I am tired of hearing babies yelling that their feelings are hurt because I think negative of their religion. What is ironic is, after they act like victims, they don't care about other's feelings when they talk negatively about other's religion, non-believers, swine, heathens or indfidels.

Regardless, I will also continue to speak my mind about the ToV without caring about what others think of me. I am immune to guilt trips or ad hominen attacks.

Exuse me for getting off topic with this brief rant.

PERSUASION TECHNIQUES USED BY CULTS
PHYSICAL TECHNIQUES

HYPERVENTILATION
Continuous overbreathing causes a drop in the carbon dioxide level in the bloodstream, producing respiratory alkalosis. In its milder stages it produces dizziness or light-headedness. More prolonged overbreathing can cause panic, muscle cramps, and convulsions. Cults often have people do continuous loud shouting and chanting to produce this state, which they reframe as having a spiritual experience.
[In the Vampire ritual of Communion one is supposed to, continually with a rapid pace, breath in through their nose and exhale through the mouth to supposedly give Lifeforce to Vampire Gods behind the mirror on your wall.]

BODY MANIPULATIONS
Former members report that a leader of one cult would pass among the followers pressing on their eyes until the optic nerve caused them to see flashes of light. This is called "bestowing divine light." In this same group members were instructed to push on their ears until they heard a buzzing sound, which was interpreted as hearing the "divine harmony."
[Another poster earlier in this thread explained how the Vampire Bible tells you to contract your anal sphincter when taking Lifeforce]

PSYCHOLOGICAL TECHNIQUES

TRANCE AND HYPNOSIS
A number of cults use hypnosis and trance to put people into altered states of consciousness, making them more compliant. Examples of techniques that induce trance include prolonged chanting, meditation, and phrase repetition.
[The Temple also uses similar thought stopping techniques that other cults have used. If you are a ToV member then you know what I am talking about. Yes, trance and self-hypnosis is relied on heavily by the Temple.]

GUIDED IMAGERY
Cult leaders use a number of different guided-imagery techniques to remove followers from their normal frames of reference. For example, long detailed visual stories can absorb the listeners in a trancelike state where they become more susceptible to suggestion. Another effective method popular with therapy cults uses guided imagery to regress members back to the pain and loneliness of their childhood.
[The Vampire Bible also builds you up with their mythology in the VB telling you all about the history and origins of Vampires. This reminds me of how the christian Bibles build up the minds of its followers to cause believers to believe in Heavens, Hells, angels or demons. And, for example, the Vampire Bibles relies heavily on visualization to validate their claims of astral vampirism.]
--------------------------------------------------
Adapted from CULTS IN OUR MIDST, by Dr. Margaret Singer and Janja Lalich (Jossey-Bass Publishers, April 1995--I didn't include full text.

The number one technique used by the Temple is FEAR in order to push you into buying more literature or degrees.

The Temple uses the fear of loosing immortality to suck you into not leaving.

To add too the "Body Manipulations" section above, the Vampire Bible has a complete list of "physical signs" to prove that one has taken Lifeforce and signs that the Undead Gods have arrived.

For example, ringing in ears, vision clears, feeling of cobwebs on body, etc...

So if you experience these physical sensations then what they are saying MUST BE TRUE! 😉

Private: I feel I owe you an apology.

Because you admit were an active member of the ToV, I must take a backseat to listen and learn what you have to say.

In my line of thinking, I was assuming that what I had been reading in the majority of the posts on this site was information that has little or nothing to do with the actual inner workings of how the Temple operates psychologically. I was assuming that posts were just skimming the surface so to speak. I had already suspected that Nemo was a fraud, but I was looking for the 'meat' of the fraud he is perpetrating. I was looking for the actual 'carrot and the stick' techniques that the Temple writings and hierarchy use to keep members captured.

I had managed to obtain the TVB and Revelation from a former registered member who was wise enough not to get ripped off any further by "stepping through the Temple gate" to active membership.

This has been my particular interest in this web site: finding out the inner workings of this cult, especially once one becomes a active member.

After reading the two books I was astounded about something right from the get-go:
"Believe nothing - test everything" is a very powerful psychological statement that sets you up for - "Within lies fact and fancy."
Since there is no distinction between fact and fancy within the writings, you really can't test anything accurately. So you must totally rely on faith. You must be told how and what to believe.
It struck me that the ToV is no different than fundamentalist Christianity, which I personally oppose. I think Christianity is a mental disorder.

I have expressed my frustration by being over judgmental about some of the postings here. I wish to see the ToV exposed for personal reasons.
I am a member of the Church of Satan. I do not understand why Nemo and others as members of the ToV are allowed to operate at clergy levels within the CoS, while simultaneously involved in something that is obviously a conflict of interest and is diametrically opposed to Satanic principles layed out by the writings of the CoS.

Private: again I apologize for my former rant of frustration that obviously rubbed the wrong way. I commend your ballsy effort to inform others of what I too see as a money machine and a manipulative cult. You are doing a good service to others and perhaps saving someone from great emotional harm.

And, if anyone tells you that the ToV is Satanic because they are "fleecing the rubes" then they are wrong.

To be honest, I am strongly disappointed that current CoS administration has supported this overt cult since the early 90's.

The last time I checked, The Satanic Bible opposes all repressive religious mentalities and is anti-cult to the core and an un-religion.

I am disappointed that the ToV still remains on their "sources" page.

I realize no organization is perfect but it still bothers me that the ToV is still promoted by the CoS.

I think the only way to make the CoS listen is by sending a email to them voicing your concerns about the ToV.

P.s. no problem Hocus Pocus. I can understand why you felt the way you did at that time. 😊

Nemo shows examples of his "carrot and stick" technique throughout his posts in LttD. Mr. Sand suggested that we bring those to surface and analyze them accordingly to better understand their signifigance. An exposure of Nemo and his henchmen through arenas like this will help in our cause, letters to the administration may be futile. Here, we are united in our cause, through anonymity, we may speak our minds freely.

On LTTD, the reason that they censor others is because they say that their messageboard is for discussing Satanism only, really?

Yet, I have noticed that negative comments or discussions about other religions on LTTD are fine and permissible, with the ToV being the only exception. Why is that?

I say let the ToV be stratified and let CoS members express their feelings towards this cult.

This suppressive attitude on LTTD reminds me of how adherents or followers of other religions try and silence all criticism against their religion, remember there are many ToV members in the CoS. Once again, for those just reading this, the LTTD owner, Mister Ventrue, is a Temple Adept. 😉

One could also argue and say that since it is his messageboard then he has the right to allow what he wants said or not said on there. However, I think suppression of CoS member's opinions about the ToV places this organization into a suspicious context.

I also think that since LTTD is, basically, a so-called "un-official" but OFFICIAL CoS messageboard then members should be allowed to express their feelings about the ToV. Quite honestly, I think the ToV could not stand against the intellectual criticisms of most Satanists.

I also feel that the ToV should be responsible for its own marketing and not use the CoS and the CoS website to further its profits. I think if the ToV declares its self as a separate organization then it should stand on its own two feet and does not the CoS for support. If they are god of the earth then they can pay their own bills.

And I feel that ToV banners and links in LTTD member's signatures are not appropiate on LTTD. I think these "shameless plugs" for the ToV should be banned.

I also find that any religion where its adherents are easily offended against any criticism to be placing that religion in a weak position. Although, I would have to exclude a religion defending its self against claims of criminal activity or human or animal sacrifice that the ToV and CoS are opposed to.

If you notice, this is a common trait with most followers of christianity. They instantly become defensive, angry and rude towards anyone who criticizes their beliefs.

Lastly, I feel the ToV is riding on the coat-tails of the Devil and is what some would call a freeloader or lot lice. Also, there are many non-CoS members in the ToV.

I know this whole ToV thing is a complex issue, but I can't read The Satanic Bible and Anton LaVey's writings and support this ToV under the banner of Satanism.

I wish Anton LaVey was still alive and would kick this organization to the curve like he did with the Setian beliefs in his Satanic Church.

Note to Setians, you have a right to your beliefs or your religion, but I take Anton LaVey's position in regards to your religion not being compatible with the Satanism that Anton LaVey defined.

What an interesting blog! It's both fun to read and filled with great information. Keep up the good work.

Here is some interesting information.

http://vampirism.subject-expert.com/vampires-f2/question-with-some-comment-temple-of-the-vampire-t60.htm

Dig...
Dig...
Dig...

Some fine, sometime comical, examples of Deflection.


http://www.satannet.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=34790#Post34790

http://www.satannet.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=63630#Post63630

http://www.satannet.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=65516#Post65516

http://www.satannet.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=90738#Post90738

http://www.satannet.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=206086#Post206086

http://www.satannet.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=129380#Post129380

Hey, I've been following the comments here for a while (few months actually). I've been an admirer of Nemo for a while- he's made some good book recommendations on LTTD that helped me for example- and I've considered joining the TOV but I've also kept in mind what's been said here.

Can any of the ex-TOV posters shed some light on:

1. The 90 day program that Nemo supposedly starts you on once you start active membership. Any hints what's involved in that and if it is useful in any way, shape or form (I've been curious about it for a while.)

2. What it's like as an active member- do you get anything good out of it basically or was it all bad and b/s?

It was all BS. The few things I got out of it could be obtained elsewhere for free.

Once you begin to "test everything" as they tell you to do, you will find that your new "family" will attack you without mercy until you conform. If you join and just have faith in what they preach and never question anything, you will pass with flying colors and may even get some really impressive (rented) titles to show off to your internet pals (for a monthly fee). Never fear, however, if you fuck up, your "friend" Nemo will graciously allow you to start all over again from the very beginning, fees and all.

Well, it's been fun, but I'm off to go do something constructive in the real world.

Again folks.. keep up the great work!!! This is a great blog. I'll be sure to keep checking back here and passing on this link to others.

I find this entire thread comedy. I think it is really, really funny, in a real life, I'm actually laughing at (ToV and Subscribers alike) the whole thing.

Here is why.

When I was man_mind on LttD forums, I used trace route to end the debate on who was ToV and who was CoS, and it was met with lackies galore (Actually only two) who came in to sling retarded comment after retarded comment about how many many people use the same providers, etc etc.

Now.....

"All my projects and companies will remain along with churchofsatan.com, vampiretemple.com, and coopstuff.com ... all of these sites, I monitor personally and upgrade or fix any security issues as they come out."

He said it himself.. he runs all the shit. Now he's charging money to use LttD and Undercroft.. No wonder he was selling Undercroft so hard:

http://www.satannet.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=363390&page=1




This was sent to me.


HAHAHAHA. Fuckin lame ass's.

Who really wants to join ToV or CoS? I know I refuse to pay to become a ding-a-ling who has masters who can't even be honest with themselves. As if the first half of that sentence wasn't enough to deter someone.

Thank you "I HATE TOV" for your feedback.

I'll contribute a personal theory on the TOV to this discussion now:

Diabolus Rex wrote 2 rituals for the Temple of Set's Ruby Tablet of Set. This would have been around the time Nemo was involved in that organization though I haven't been able to find more info on Rex's involvement in the TOS. From what I understand they would have both left the COS for the TOS around the same time- and returned to the Church around the same time. When they left, the TOV was founded and both were Adepts in it.

This has led me to develop this possible theory: the TOV is a parody of the Temple of Set. Perhaps they intentionally joined the TOS just to learn what it was like on the inside, left when they had enough info and set up the TOV to mock the TOS and drain away potential members.

When you consider how machivellian Satanism can be, it makes a lot of sense as possibility doesn't it? Perhaps a group of Satanists agreed in the 80s to pretend to be disillusioned with the COS and "defect" to the TOS- only to sabotoge it.

"Those who hate most fervently must have once loved deeply; those who want to deny the world must have once embraced what they now set on fire."

Dracula777-Your theory is an interesting one, I just can't phathom playing out a parody this long. If parody is (was) indeed the purpose along with the plan of sabatoge, wouldn't you say that it most likely worked, a long time ago! It would make sense that for the reason's stated above HP Gilmore and the likes would turn a blind eye to what we now view in a skeptics eye, perhaps in hopes of increasing CoS membership income. Though, since when did Satanism ever care about the disillusioned whether it be a single individual or a hundred individuals? To plot to this extent bewilders me, Rex being an Iconic member of the Satanic Community, a pioneer of Satanic Idiology, I don't see him wasting his time on such ventures. In close, if this were the intention, the goal of such was likely completed many moons ago. Now the plot (if that were the case) has been distorted into a hoax-money-making-scam that should have been put to rest but wasn't.

Never fear, however, if you fuck up, your "friend" Nemo will graciously allow you to start all over again from the very beginning, fees and all.

Interesting, this must be a new policy because when I was a member they used to preach that the ToV was not a revolving door and will not let you back in once you leave.

Since the ToV teaches the followers that they can live forever, I was wondering what is said to those who are more unfortunate and live the present life in chronic pain or are prone to ill health.
Are only top shape vampires worthy of belonging to the ToV?
Is cryonics the only immortality angle that the temple has?

I am disabled and in pain 24/7 and the concept of the all powerful everlasting vampire who will take part in ruling the world is laughable and absurd to me. People who are in good health might have to discern a little harder about this bullshit. People who are not so healthy see things in sharp contrast and don't take so much for granted. We aren't open to as much metaphysical brainwashing as others are (unless we are the super fools who go to idiot Christian healing services).

The peer pressure on members of the ToV to be and act a certain way must be tremendous.

Perhaps the ToV is merely a form of Epicureanism, a means of gratification and indulgence shared by like minded people. On the other side of that coin, what information is made available by the ToV, from a Satanist's perspective, closely resembles a path of Self-Deceit. I have read their "bible" and I could not translate it into anything more than a Spirtitual Pipedream. I have admiration for a couple of it's members' intellect and intelligence and am bewildered by their choice to participate in such hypocritcal nonsense. RedRose-I don't believe that the ToV dicriminates against the Unfortunate or Ill Prone, thier money spends just as everyone elses does. Just to be fair though, you could always "test everything" and spend a couple of days wandering around your local mall trying to drain the "Lifeforce" out of unsuspecting victims, you never know, you just never know?!? I'm thinking of one ToV Super-Vampire right now...and if Tip-Top shape means doing 360's in your desk chair while surfing the Lifeforce Forums in your skivies, then that might be the case, otherwise ever see the movie WarGames, remember Mathew Broderick's role, that's what I envision. Hail the Renaissance!

The surest way to attain immortality is to have children.

There's been lots of anti-Christian sentiment expressed in these comments, but you know, at least Catholics understand that and have big families. That makes them smarter than the antisocial, narcissistic jerks who join mailorder cults like The Temple of the Vampire.

Ironically, the only people being preyed on are the ones gullible enough to send money to the con artists running this operation.

MLM wrote: "I also notice that the Temple borrowed from Gnosticism, Crowley, Theosophy, Lifeforce concepts from Eastern esoteric societies and literature, chaos magick..."

Not to mention Nietzsche, Anne Rice, William Bramley, Von Daniken, Zecharia Sitchin, William Meyers, and J. G. Eccarius.

You know, if the "Vampire Bible" were being published as fiction, or as a literary hoax like the Necronomicon, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But I believe the ideas that are being peddled by this cult are psychologically harmful, particularly to the vulnerable segments of the population that are being targeted (i.e., alienated teens/young adults and schizophrenics). The people who are running this scam are utterly amoral scumbags, almost as bad in my view as pimps or drug dealers. It's not because you *can* screw people that you *should*.

MLM wrote: "Also, one who has researched such things, will notice there are strong similarities between the Temple of Set teachings and ToV teachings."

If I'm not mistaken, the Temple of Set has or had an "Order of the Vampire" or something along that line.

Are only top shape vampires worthy of belonging to the ToV?
Is cryonics the only immortality angle that the temple has?

Actually, the only one's "worthy" are the one's who have enough money to pay for cryonics, pay for membership fees, pay for books, and pay for jewelry from the Temple.

Yes, as some presume in this topic, there is high pressure sales, to buy and do all these things under the guise of