The Kitten Killer of Hangzhou

Status: Real (unfortunately)
A series of pictures showing a woman crushing a kitten to death with her stiletto heels is causing an uproar over in China. The pictures first appeared on the internet and have recently been published by some Chinese newspapers. The woman in the photos has been dubbed the Kitten Killer of Hangzhou, because the background scene has been identified as Hangzhou. I've been able to locate four of the pictures in the series, but I think there are a few more (far more graphic) ones. Here are the ones I found (I don't have larger versions):

image image
Image 3
(possibly disturbing)
Image 4
(possibly disturbing)

The big question is: Who is this woman? One theory is that the images come from a Japanese shoe advertisement. Another theory identifies the kitten killer as a "37-year-old woman from Hubei province with the internet identity 'Gainmas.'" The London Telegraph elaborates:

She had registered a website in Hangzhou and - the ultimate evidence - had bought a pair of stilettoes on eBay last year. She was also registered with QQ, a popular Chinese message service, where she wrote of herself: "I furiously crush everything to do with you and me." Before her QQ address went dead, its owner had several conversations. In one, she is coy, saying "So what?" when asked if the pictures are of her, and then, when asked again, replying: "In theory." When confronted by a reporter, she became defensive, saying: "Suddenly hundreds of people are on my QQ and cursing me. What's the problem if I crush cats? It's a type of experience. You wouldn't understand."

The Telegraph goes on to note:

No one seems to have suggested the serious possibility that the photographs could be a hoax - created by picture-altering computer software. But in the face of tight control of self-expression, young Chinese are seeking wildly different forms of sensation or satire on the state of society.

Without having seen all the pictures (and better quality ones), it's hard to judge whether or not they're real. But it certainly seems like this has already become the Chinese version of Bonsai Kitten (with the added twist that it may be real... in which case it's definitely disgusting).

Update: A "Crush" video is circulating around (you can find links to it in the comments, if you're interested) that makes it pretty clear the woman really did step on a kitten. Also, an article in the Shanghai Daily reports that the lady, and the guy who produced the video, have been identified. The producer, who is a camera operator at a TV station, has apologized. However, the woman, who works as a nurse at a hospital, has disappeared, leading to concerns that kitten commandoes may have abducted her (or something along those lines).

Animals Gross Photos

Posted on Mon Mar 06, 2006



Comments

what i got to say?? like everyones major point...WE ALL HATE YOU! i mean.. WAT DID THAT HOSPITAL TRAIN YOU TO BECOME?! oh OHH YEAH..beware PATIENTS. she might have a bad day and wear her stitello shoes, and come step on ur head and squish ur eyeballs out. .O u see how theres only one eyeball? yeah..she squished it out. DID YOU ASK NOT TO GO TO WORK???? SO U COULD GO KILL A CAT!?!??! well yeah... YOU NEEDED A GOOD EXPERIENCE.. -__-" i mean.. ITS A FREE WORLD, so i mean if i wear my boots... i could just u know CRUSH YOUR BIG HEAD UNDER MY BIG FOOT. right? YEAH IT WILL BE A GOOD EXPERIENCE lady... such a disgrace, HEY? i got a question did u get fired yet? or are you trying to tell them that it waS A GOOD experience..and that they should come join u and kill cats. DDONT HAVE KIDS, YOU MIGHT KILL THEM.
Posted by this1catkillerhater  on  Thu Mar 23, 2006  at  02:27 PM
um actually Paper8 yeah all chinese ppl are like aat least 3/4 of them have u not noticed what goes on in china all the animal cruelty n thats just because they dont have animal rights there and actually aprove of animal cruelty
Posted by Keyra  on  Sat Mar 25, 2006  at  08:36 PM
oh and by the way i couldnt care less if u say im racist its just my opinion about chinese ppl and im allowed to think what i want. and i have never liked them whatsoever
Posted by Keyra  on  Sat Mar 25, 2006  at  08:40 PM
I really do hope this is photshopped.

Here's the video...
http://www.consumptionjunction.com/content/detail.asp?ID=54748&type=1&page=2
Posted by Krystal  on  Sun Mar 26, 2006  at  12:09 AM
How can some of you people still believe that that was photoshoped! Even when you've seen it, surely this generation would be more savy to tell te difference between whats real and fake, even with poor quality footage.

i seriously dont mean to be rude or techified but its really getting on my nerves. Using a computer to create anything similar to that movie would be highly inefficient for the filmakers/producers, mundanely time consuming and so goddam costly i doubt anyone bar big buck blockbuster standards wud pay for it. it would take months, 24/7 to photoshop a moving image perfectly. and you wouldnt use photoshop, there are hundreds of applications that would do the job.
Posted by gericka  on  Sun Mar 26, 2006  at  06:29 AM
Keyra you must not get out much, because from what you are saying, it seems like every 4th chinese person that you pass along the street inhumane and likes to torture animals! Man you are free to say what you want, but at least think before you say shit like that. There are poeple who are cruel to animals all around the world, whites, blacks, indian, chinese. Every race has fuck ups who do fucked up things, you can't just group people together just because of their skin.

You got some serios issues if you hate a person just because the color of their skin. How can you judge a person before even seeing them or getting to know them.

What you said can be seen as pretty racist to be perfectlly honest, but at the same time I feel sorry for you because you are narrow minded and from your comments it does seem that you live in your own little world where the majority of chinese people like to torture little animals in their spare time.

China does not have animal rights, but does that mean that just because they have animal rights people won't do it! Don't be stupid. Rape is against the law people still do it, robbery is against the law people still do it. There are just bad people and bad people will just do shit like that.

Anyway I'm not gonna comment on this anymore because there's no point in trying to explain anything to anyone who has ideas set in their heads already.

What heppend in the video is bad, I'm not denying it, but there are worse things happening in the world for us to get so worked up on this few minutes clip. What has been done is done, it can't be erased and it will happen again, so just wacth the clip and just understand that shit like that happens and not turn it into a race thing, as shit like this happens everyday! NOT JUST IN CHINA!

I'm in the U.K and the other week there was a picture in the papers of a dog chained to a tree and set alight! Shit like that just happens.
Posted by PAPER8  on  Mon Mar 27, 2006  at  08:11 AM
i guess.... maybe she could have been a single mother....and her kid had a terminal illness....and they had no money for food.... so she could have taken the cat home for dinner
Posted by ericka  on  Mon Mar 27, 2006  at  08:16 AM
ericka: yeah, could have been. but it wasn't. so read the facts
Posted by mike  on  Mon Mar 27, 2006  at  08:31 AM
mike: read the sarcasim
Posted by gericka  on  Mon Mar 27, 2006  at  08:45 AM
lllllllllpppppppppp,

you're not seriously saying you think bonsai kittens are real are you??????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by Trotsky  on  Wed Mar 29, 2006  at  07:16 PM
even if the bonsia kittens arent real its still sooooooooo gross...and its rong to say thing like that
Posted by vurb  on  Wed Mar 29, 2006  at  08:52 PM
^^^^^ o, and this is seriesly gross wut n the hell is rong wit that bitch smashing a poor innocent kitten
Posted by vurb  on  Wed Mar 29, 2006  at  08:56 PM
personally i think it is funny i HATE cats.... jk i luv them this is sooooooooo gross i agree wit vurb
Posted by mwahaha  on  Wed Mar 29, 2006  at  08:59 PM
Bonsai kttens, my love, are a hoax, a joke. I am a total cat lover (not in THAT WAY) and find the Bonsai kitten site clever and funny.
Lighten up.
Of course The Kitten Killer of Hangzhou is another kettle of fish (jar of kittens!)altogether.
Posted by Trotsky  on  Wed Mar 29, 2006  at  09:00 PM
dont u get it, thats not the piont, god
Posted by vurb  on  Wed Mar 29, 2006  at  09:05 PM
LOVE? that gross
Posted by lllllllllppppppppp  on  Wed Mar 29, 2006  at  09:08 PM
thank u ppl like that make this world a horrible place
Posted by vurb  on  Wed Mar 29, 2006  at  09:18 PM
I was talking about Bonsai kittens being funny certainly not this.
I agree and have said in a previous post that the whole Crush fetish scene is disgusting (please if you are going to make a comment bother to read the 7 previous pages of postings). I have no desire to watch that video thanks. In fact I find it very odd why anyone who knows this video is going to be offensive would watch it. It
Posted by Trotsky  on  Wed Mar 29, 2006  at  09:20 PM
totally agree,and as a fellow animal lover, people should not even think things up like that thats freakin horrible and i looked up bonsia kittens i totally beleive it and its a horrible and painful process for the cat anyway i hope that girl will rott in hell and it does not look photoshopped even thinkin those things is gross beyond gross
Posted by mark  on  Wed Mar 29, 2006  at  09:24 PM
still gross guess wut... the bonsia kittens r n the same principal that is just a longer and more painful process and thinking of sumtin like that is equally gross poor cats wut kind of person would think that bonsia kittens r funny.. maybe we just have 2 different oppinionsplease stop arguing with me, but at least u agree this kitten killer thing is bad as most anyone would
Posted by llllllllllpppppppppp  on  Wed Mar 29, 2006  at  09:30 PM
7 wut pg 7... the 7th one please explain Trotsky
Posted by vurb  on  Wed Mar 29, 2006  at  09:32 PM
Sadly, it is looking like this is most likely a real video. It would take so much effort to fake this, and from what other people on here have mentioned this sort of thing does seem to be a fashion. While I don't have anything against quickly killing animals for food or such, it is a shame when people abuse animals simply for the sake of abusing them.

I do find it rather amusing, though, to see that some people still adamantly cling to the belief that bonsai kittens are real.
Posted by Accipiter  on  Wed Mar 29, 2006  at  11:06 PM
i really dont think that is the piont, the idea of bonsia kittens is sickening.
Posted by mark  on  Thu Mar 30, 2006  at  06:39 AM
I saw the video, it looks real, but the cat does not move (hmmmmm) nor does it struggle to get away, it looks like the evil girl is just laying down a dead cat and squishing it, or maybe it was not awake like that lady tranquilized it, either way it does not look like it was suffering
Posted by who cares  on  Thu Mar 30, 2006  at  09:16 AM
if u saw the video, then surely u wud have seen its legs make making convulsive movements?! well into the middle part of the movie? sorry u must be blind.
Posted by gericka  on  Fri Mar 31, 2006  at  12:05 PM
maybe its legs were moving slightly, but y did it not try 2 get away
Posted by who cares  on  Fri Mar 31, 2006  at  04:49 PM
The video links don't work anymore. Can someone find a new one?
Posted by Ian  on  Sat Apr 01, 2006  at  01:17 AM
if you read my post in page 6, i mentioned that the animal cud be only partialy sedated or paralysed, as i worked as a vets assistant, i got to stand in on operations to just watch, iv seen that when an animal isnt properly anaesthetized it does those things. although i believed it was a paralytic drug as apposed to anaesthetic where it wud be asleep. as shes a nurse too she cud get sum no problem. heck! i was born in hong kong, being in china a person cud get anything no problem!
Posted by gericka  on  Sat Apr 01, 2006  at  06:17 AM
I guess two kittens will die, cause I just rubbed on out to this.
Posted by Baddude  on  Sun Apr 02, 2006  at  03:03 PM
llllllllllpppppppp said: heres another coppy of the video.....i cant believe that u even want to watch it!!!

I can't believe that you took the time and effort to find another copy of the video, especially as you appear to find it so offensive.
Posted by Smerk  on  Mon Apr 03, 2006  at  08:07 PM
"FOR THE LAST TIME!!!!! who cares if its fake or real or a dead or paralized or slpeeping cat!!!!"
-- Posted by llllllllllppppppp on Apr. 03

Well, this is a web-site devoted to figuring out if things are hoaxes or not, so I would have to say that most of the people reading this are.

"Its stil gross to even think about squishing a living or dead or sleeping or paralized cat!!!! Y CANT YOU PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT!!!"

Errrr. . .exactly who are you screaming at? Nobody's said anything at all recently arguing against that. Calm down.
Posted by Accipiter  on  Mon Apr 03, 2006  at  09:53 PM
yes agreed it is the most gross and vile fetish in the world, but surely it would be even more offensive and horrific that it is performed on live and incapacited animals. I just wanted to make a point that it was just so, as ppl still seemed to think that because it didnt run away it felt no pain.

this is definately not the only video that exist of the genre, its on the rise everywhere especially in the UK. It was a big thing in the 80s underground, and only gbecame illegal properly in early 90s. way back in 1994 rspca were arresting ppl left right and centre for the production and sale this sort of thing. In most of those videos the kittens feet were glued to a wooden board, puppies legs were broken, and lizards tails were nailed to the floor!

So no offense, but if ppl ask the question, and dont seem to be able to make a decision over what they're watching, i want to let them no its real and that the problem is so much more monstrous then it seems.
Posted by gericka  on  Tue Apr 04, 2006  at  02:44 AM
this is the most disturbing thing i have ever read....she should be shot through the eye with a f**king shotgun.
Posted by Jerusha  on  Wed Apr 05, 2006  at  07:19 AM
Of course its sick! But go into a slotterhouse and what you find there is even the same shit like the one on the clip! So, stop to cry about this cat. Think about the chicken you will eat for dinner and how it died!
Posted by Tompel  on  Thu Apr 06, 2006  at  08:27 AM
Bloody hell! People are still posting about this? They're just bloody KITTENS! 30,000 children die of preventable diseases in the world EVERY DAY! Get a grip!
Posted by NH  on  Thu Apr 06, 2006  at  03:56 PM
OH MY GOD!!! Who he hell does she think she is?
Posted by Oscar V.  on  Fri Apr 07, 2006  at  11:20 AM
hi, i just what to add my views on this subject.

i am a 'crush fetishist' and ive viewed the file, (which someone posted the link above) i am a massive animal lover myself and personally i find it degrading!!

but basicly i'm just writting to say i hope you don't find all 'crush fetishists' sick!! - deep down we all have fetishes (a lot of them are WEIRDER than this).

yet what is strange about someone stepping on a bug (thats my interest).

our attraction, is basicly seeing a 'giant woman' crushing something and most crush fans picture themselfs being the bug (food, cigs etc), its all fantasy and an harmless fantasy.

but yes, when the interest evolves from bug/to animal then something is seriously wrong (with that person).

but its like sex/evolving to rape (for example) theres always people wanting to take something that little extra further and you get that with EVERTHING in life!!

but fortunitly, now laws have been put in place (some years ago) 'animal crush' is very rare in the crush scene (thank god).

but i hope you don't judge all 'crush fetishists' as one on this subject.

if you do, its like your judging everyone who likes having sex (who doesn't) to a rapist, if you get my point.
Posted by ghost6355uk  on  Sun Apr 16, 2006  at  08:48 PM
this is definately not the only video that exist of the genre, its on the rise everywhere especially in the UK. It was a big thing in the 80s underground, and only gbecame illegal properly in early 90s. way back in 1994 rspca were arresting ppl left right and centre for the production and sale this sort of thing. In most of those videos the kittens feet were glued to a wooden board, puppies legs were broken, and lizards tails were nailed to the floor!

So no offense, but if ppl ask the question, and dont seem to be able to make a decision over what they're watching, i want to let them no its real and that the problem is so much more monstrous then it seems.
Posted by gericka on Tue Apr 04, 2006 at 12:44 AM

----
actaully your totally wrong, these videos are on the 'decline' actaully this is the first case in many years!!

you say its a problem in the UK, the UK as had one case of 'animal cruelty' involving crush and that was 2002 (and it was the last case in crush as a whole).

you say 'in most cases' these videos have kittens/puppies in them?? -

actaully past 'animal videos' 90% of the time the creature was mice, most which were produced in the america - in the mid/late 90's,

the 80's (as you say :/) the internet never even existed, so there wasn't a market for 'fetish' of any form.

do some research on something in future.
Posted by ghost6355uk  on  Sun Apr 16, 2006  at  09:03 PM
Lil' update 04/16:
They tracked down that whore and she lost her job. Not _my_ idea of a right treatment but think she's not doing that kind of thing again.

B-I-T-C-H.
Posted by Gazonga  on  Tue Apr 18, 2006  at  12:48 AM
ghost6355uk:

Im sorry if i offended but i feel very strongly about violence against animals and i believe that
it has a direct link with fantasies involving violence with humans.

Im not naive to fetishes, i love the feeling of being tattooed, and am pretty into the whole bondage scene, but by my own choice and my 'willing' partners to involve myself/ourselves in these acts. A person has no right to use a living thing, especially an animal/insect/reptile/anything, which in my opinion has no place in sexual dealings in the first place (this involves zoophilia and beastialities). Its on a par with involving children who have no comprehension of what is going!

As for my references, according to the rspca services, which is only one of the charities i contacted to take this vid offline, have told me that their intelligence leads them to believe that this sort of sick video production is on the increase in the UK. I recieved posts on this subject between the early march and beginning of april. So im getting info from higher sources. And they had 'VIDEO' in th 80s. You dont have to high tech to be able to pass on filth.

Also with the rise of peer-to-peer file sharing networks, the availability and production of crush videos could be on the rise through ameteur producers without any of us the wiser. Iv come across real kiddy porn by just searching for episodes of LOST and Battlestar for gods sake!
Posted by gericka  on  Tue Apr 18, 2006  at  03:27 AM
As for having a 'giant woman' crushing something and picturing yourselves being the bug (food, cigs etc), "its all fantasy and an harmless fantasy."

It may be a completely different case for you but for some more hardcore fans, the fetish may only just begin with insects, worms, crickets and snails. As for me killing any living thing is disgraceful in my books, as stupid as it may sound, i take the spiders out of the bath and release them, and move snails off the path to my door.

Just to remind you that this may apply to other 'crush fetishist' who may become desensitized to watching smaller creatures squirm in agony, they move on to larger and larger creatures. Tarantulas and large centipedes, then crayfish, crabs, and fish are next.

And when the "thrill" of tormenting those creatures fades, the hardcore crush fetishist moves on to more evolved animals that suffer more intensely and visibly: baby mice ("pinkies"), rats, guinea pigs, kittens, and dogs.

Empathizing with crustaceans and insects may be difficult some, but the few that are unable to see the evil in the act torturing and killing mice, cats and dogs cannot see the wrong in and are seriously out of touch with their conscience and let their sexual fantasies go way to far.

I have no problem with the many websites devoted to non-destructive trampling, foot fetishes, and "giantess worship", and although it may seem odd to those who don't share those particular fascinations, its perfectly normal to have a weird fascination, even if it is stepping on a toothpaste tube. I only start to worry when abuse is applied to a non willing entity.

People who have sexual problems or are over assertive and cannot find similar interest partners or a proper outlet lash out, and being a victim of sexual attack, i can only assume that a person who will over power his fixcation, perform his fantasies which he may know are wrong and intentionally hurt someone or something in the process with no empathy, is an individual who is taking his fetish too far and has a very serious problem which his sexual state and more importantly his mental state.
Posted by gericka  on  Tue Apr 18, 2006  at  03:27 AM
gericka,

to be honest i agree with most what you say, but having a fetish yourself - you've got to be open-minded about other peoples fetish.

you say in your eyes even bug crush is wrong, yet when you go to the supermarket tomorrow they'll be sprays/fly squaters - things you can buy for getting rid of of bugs.

bug crush isn't the problem, i'm quite proud of my fetish's infact (foot fetish, crush).

'crushing a bug' will never become illegal (infact crush is a big market), i could probably name you 50 websites off the top of my head, and most of them are glamour models doing it!! - see it is an easy way for them to make money by just putting there foot down on something...(killing a bug is human nature), whether its kids walking home from school stomping ants, or squatting a fly with the newspaper.

yes animal crush is wrong, and it is a downside to the 'crush fetish' - but you say you have a 'bondage fetish' great! but that also can be taken to the extreme.

but whilst i am against any 'animal' being killed for sexual gratification, whats the diffence in animals being killed for 'fun?'

i'm not sure on your nationality but britain (fox hunting) the royal family do that all the time (even now its banned)!! :O

duck hunting, if your american all the members of congress love enduging in a little bit of shooting (just ask dick cheney)!!

how is the cow (beef), turkey (christmas), chicken (sunday dinner), killed before you eat it? how do you know it never suffered a painful death, yet would it stop MOST people eating it even if they knew?.

how about all the animal testing that goes off, (testing monkeys, ginny pigs etc)

but yeah as said, i'm totally against animal violence (in any form) - but it just irrates me is how 'crush' gets highlighted when OTHER things are going on in the world.

like this clip for example, yes it is degrading - but do a search on google about how an animal testing experiment looks and i bet its even more sicking than this (yet thats allowed)!!

crush isn't the problem, this is the first case in the press since 2002 and before that it was the 1990's.
Posted by ghost6355uk  on  Tue Apr 18, 2006  at  08:11 PM
As for my references, according to the rspca services, which is only one of the charities i contacted to take this vid offline, have told me that their intelligence leads them to believe that this sort of sick video production is on the increase in the UK. I recieved posts on this subject between the early march and beginning of april. So im getting info from higher sources. And they had 'VIDEO' in th 80s. You dont have to high tech to be able to pass on filth.
====
well i will say this mate, the RSPCA are wrong - theres only 1 crush website in fact EVEN from the uk :/ (which is basicly trample and as the odd bug/food crush).

i'm a trusted member in crush (seen/know a lot) and the 80's ive never heard of any crush video in the 1980's :/ (how was it distrubuted/advertised)??

HARD crush was on the go in the mid/late-90's (when it was legal in the united states)!!

seal hunting/whale killing/bear dancing/elephant hunting/chicken fighting etc...is A LOT more common than a mouse being stepped on.
Posted by ghost6355uk  on  Tue Apr 18, 2006  at  09:41 PM
"They tracked down that whore and she lost her job. Not _my_ idea of a right treatment but think she's not doing that kind of thing again."

Unless the money's good, in which case she can now go 'full time'.

Just a thought.
Posted by David B.  on  Tue Apr 25, 2006  at  09:09 AM
Well, we literally slaughter pigs...what's the difference between a pig and a cat? What if we always ate cats, not pigs and this was a pig being crushed?
Posted by Omfg!!!!  on  Tue Apr 25, 2006  at  05:26 PM
I saw this clip completely by mistake last night, and I haven't been the same since.

I immediately deleted my account on the picture serving site (yafro) after seeing it, I was horrified to say the least.

People are the crulest, sickest creatures on the planet.

Should she die for it? That logic has the same cruelty. SHould she be sterilized and forced in to a mental hospital? Quite possibly.

The most disturbing aspect of it is that the poor animal seems totally trusting and affectionate towards her, and she had no respect for it's life at all- even up until the end, the look on it's face only turned to disbelief after she had already mortally wounded it before the c&nt; put her heel through both eyesockets.

Someone like her should never be able to have children, nor be the president of the united states )George Bush had tortured and killed small animals as a child).
Posted by stuart  on  Thu Apr 27, 2006  at  05:48 PM
This piece of disgust made it to neopets.com, a children's website, and my child came crying to me this morning and has been completely freaked ever since. I'm sick to my stomach also. I certainly have no qualms wishing this "Asian woman" a near and not quick demise. Sorry, but you get what you dish in this life or beyond, and I'm not an American Christian freak, so I'm hoping it's this life and soon. KARMA.
Posted by VickiH  on  Sat Apr 29, 2006  at  09:19 PM
ummmm i think there are 2 more videos depicting a pupy and a rabbit being killed in the same manner....
Posted by kald  on  Mon May 01, 2006  at  08:41 PM
this vid, and the other two, are on http://www.steakandcheese.com i personally believe that any crime involving animals should be a capital offense. if someone is able to kill an innocent animal for a few dollars then they are able to kill children. most serial killers start out as the sick fucks pulling wings off flys and tying cans to a cats tail. now let me say something to you vegan douchebags. there is a BIG difference between crushing a kitten for the sake of jerking off to it, and killling a cow or a pig for food. if you can not see that, then you are no better than the crushers. yes, we do not need meat to live, but it is my CHOICE do do so. it is human nature to eat meat, dating back thousands of years. now, i consider myself to have a pretty high tolerance. i frequently visit rotten.com (not for the pics, the library has some very intelligent articles)and it has no effect on me. i do refuse to watch this video though, and the ones on steakandcheese. as a 14 year old who has had several cats hit by cars, this subject hits close to home. for all you vegans who are saying "you only care because the animals cute!" thats not true. i am opposed to slaughterhouses, (i know im a hypocrite)hunting, and even declawing cats. ANY act of cruelty to ANY animal is fucking wrong, regardless of whether its cute or not
Posted by mokoto  on  Tue May 02, 2006  at  08:07 AM
I didn't watch the video, and I won't. It's hard to believe some sick bitch would even do that to a living creature. She just better hope that nobody (like me) who has compassion for animals and knows what she did runs into her. I hope someone stomps out her eyes and puts her into a mental hospital. In fact, I wish we could bring back the iron maiden just for this specific purpose. Maybe fix it so that it will slowly close for about 4 days.

No pain medication, either.
Posted by Herman  on  Tue May 02, 2006  at  05:42 PM
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