The Girl With X-Ray Eyes

imageNatasha Demkina, a young girl living in Saransk, Russia, began to receive a lot of media attention around the middle of last month. It started with an article in Pravda, which hailed her as the 'Girl with X-ray vision'. You see, Natasha possesses the unusual ability to peer through human flesh and spot diseases and injuries that are lurking unseen within people's bodies. Or, at least, this is what Pravda claimed. It didn't take long for more newspapers to catch onto the story. The British Sun has been the most relentless about pursuing it. They've actually flown Natasha to London and are now parading her around like some kind of weird curiosity. Does Natasha really have x-ray eyes? Well, I doubt it. But I'm sure The Sun is going to milk this for all it's worth.

Health/Medicine

Posted on Tue Feb 03, 2004



Comments

Andrew Shelinick said:

"Natasha's gift could simply be just that--a discovery we have yet to make."

What gift indeed? Andrew, there's a difference between "could be" and "is."

The simple fact is that everytime Natasha has been asked to demonstrate her "gift," she's failed.

Things CAN be tested. Natasha has been tested. She has failed. End of story.

If and when someone comes along who can prove that they really have X-ray vision, that will be a very interesting thing for science to try to understand. It hasn't happened yet and it isn't very likely to happen.
Posted by Cranky Media Guy  on  Thu May 12, 2005  at  01:02 AM
First, that's not my name. Second, I didn't say that, someone else did. All I said was, "What gift?". Not everyone would agree that Natasha has failed to "demonstrate her gift" every time she was asked. She certainly failed when we asked her to. But you are right that it would be very interesting to science if someone came along who did have the powers Natasha claims. And you are right that this is very unlikely to happen.
Posted by askolnick  on  Thu May 12, 2005  at  07:21 AM
Richard Wiseman, the so called expert who put Natasha Demkina through the heavily biased test, made a living as a stage magician before coming away with a psychology degree. Did he pull a fast one there? Whatever the arguments to and fro, and despite the abnormal conditions to which she was subjected, this girl still managed to emerge from the test with 4 hits out of 7, a remarkable achievement in anybody's book.
Posted by Thormod Morrisson  on  Sat Jun 11, 2005  at  08:08 AM
test should be very simple. just bring one of those guys who can swallow nails and stuff and make him stand among others. if she can spot him....she's XRay girl 😊
Posted by mishal  on  Tue Jul 05, 2005  at  12:15 AM
Thormod Morrisson clearly doesn't know what he is talking about when he says that Natasha's matching 4 out of 7 subjects in our non-blinded study was "a remarkable achievement in anybody's book." I don't know what book he's reading, but I wouldn't recommend it to anyone who is interested in separating fact from fiction. And his mocking effort to discredit Prof. Wiseman by adding "so-called" in front of "expert" is as lame as is his attempt to disparage the distinguished psychologist by mentioning Wiseman's experience as a magician. Is Morrisson so dense that he doesn't understand why a good knowledge of magic is helpful for seeing through the trickery psychics use to fool the gullible?

For many reason's Mishal's suggested test would not be a valid scientific test. For one, there is no way to eliminate the "Clever Hans" phenomenon -- which would make the test he proposes utterly useless.
Posted by askolnick  on  Tue Jul 05, 2005  at  10:11 AM
P.S. Thurmod Morrison wrote, "Whatever the arguments to and fro."

I believe he was trying to say, "Whatever the arguments for and against."

For Morrison, I suspect getting 4 things right out of 7 "is a remarkable achievement in anybody's book."
Posted by askolnick  on  Tue Jul 05, 2005  at  10:21 AM
Spoken like a good little Csicop, Askolnick. I repeat, if someone is tested as Natasha Demkina was tested and managed four hits out of seven it is remarkable, especially considering the pressure she was placed under. As for your defence of this hack Wiseman, are you actually saying that the man became a stage magician for the purpose of debunking psychics? I think not. Perhaps your renowned "professor" should have put on his Merlin costume to test the girl. He might have had better luck.
Posted by Thormod Morrisson  on  Thu Jul 07, 2005  at  01:38 PM
Instead of backing up his claim with evidence, Thormod Morrison merely repeats the nonsense as if we are hard of hearing. Perhaps, like Dorothy, he'd achieve more if he clicked his heels three times while repeating it.
Posted by askolnick  on  Thu Jul 07, 2005  at  02:20 PM
And what solid evidence do you have, Askolnick? You put this girl to a sham test and she still manages to excel by correctly identifying four people out of seven with the medical ailments you tried to conceal from her. You can wriggle on your hook as much as you like about this, it doesn't change that fact. I daresay you'll respond to this yet again the way monkeys react to peanuts. If you don't hear from me, it's not because I've given up the argument (which I never will), but because I have a life outside your silly little forum. As for the Dorothy outfit, I imagine it would suit you better. we have a word for men who wear women's dresses where I come from.
Posted by Thormod Morrisson  on  Thu Jul 07, 2005  at  04:06 PM
As exected, there Thurmod Morrison goes repeating his claim for the third time! -- as if shouting repeatedly can turn baseless nonsense into fact and reason. But has he clicked his heels three times? It doesn't matter. I doubt anything will bring this guy back from the Land of Oz.
Posted by askolnick  on  Thu Jul 07, 2005  at  10:26 PM
For a more balanced view and a truly scientific approach to this matter, readers are directed to view Nobel Prize Winner Professor Brian Josephson's home page. Click on the link: The Propogandizing Activities of the Anti Paranormal Organization CSICOP.
Posted by Robert Calvin  on  Mon Jul 25, 2005  at  05:39 PM
LOL! I don't think Brian Josephson has done anything "truly scientific" since winning his Nobel prize in 1973 -- the same year he turned to the dark side and endorsed the real, genuine fake psychic powers of the spoon-bending magician Uri Geller. Said the Nobel Laureate, "I think Uri is a magician, but I don't particularly believe that he is using trickery." See these two noted men of pseudoscience:

Boy, I'd love to be a three-card Monte dealer in his neighborhood -- I'd be able to retire early. In the past 30 years, I don't think he's met a single psychic charlatan he hasn't endorsed as having real, genuine supernatural powers.
Posted by askolnick  on  Tue Jul 26, 2005  at  05:53 AM
askolnick said:

"Said the Nobel Laureate, "I think Uri is a magician, but I don't particularly believe that he is using trickery."

Anyone who is fooled by Uri "Please don't think of me as Jesus" Geller should not be taken seriously by anyone on the subject of the paranormal.

Geller is a fake and not even a very good one.
Posted by Cranky Media Guy  on  Tue Jul 26, 2005  at  06:53 AM
What an unfortunate name. I keep reading it as Ass Hole Nick, quite appropriate for an organization that is so cosily male dominated.
Posted by Robert Calvin  on  Wed Jul 27, 2005  at  03:42 AM
Robert Calvin says, "I keep reading it as Ass Hole Nick."

Calvin, have you considered taking an adult reading class? It might help.
Posted by askolnick  on  Wed Jul 27, 2005  at  05:22 AM
I don't care what skeptical people says. And I am careless about the results of the test. There's something that everybody must see: she helps people and give them hope and health (when they go again to doctors and question about...) So I think that in physical terms it can be a big fraud, but in more important terms i refer to those what make us human; she's doing a good work. Help other ones. What else can you ask for?
Posted by Boy  on  Tue Aug 02, 2005  at  06:24 PM
So what if she picks up clues from the subject's behaviours? Isn't it an achievement to diagnose medical conditions from a subject's behaviour? Doesn't a doctor look at symptoms to diagnose a condition? What if there are symptoms or reactions not documented scientifically, which point to particular medical conditions? Isn't it scientific to study such "clues"? How can you dismiss this as "not warranting further scientific study"?
It is truly evil when media interferes with science.
Posted by Malroy  on  Wed Aug 03, 2005  at  11:44 AM
Malroy's comments show that he or she doesn't understand what the CSMMH/CSICOP test measured or how it was conducted.

What is "truly evil" is the promotion of ignorance and superstition over science and reason. Malroy argues for Natasha's right to deceive the desparately ill and that it's immoral for researchers to put a psychic's claim to a controlled test -- although it's perfectly moral for a psychic to tell sick people that she can see diseased organs with her supernatural vision, while doing nothing more than giving them a "cold reading."
Posted by askolnick  on  Wed Aug 03, 2005  at  12:39 PM
Lol. Are people supposed to take you seriously, Ass Hole Nick?
Posted by Robert Calvin  on  Mon Aug 15, 2005  at  01:16 PM
I've been browsing the forum on this latest topic and as someone from the scientific community, am always willing to explore claim and counter claim. However, it disturbs and confuses me that you back up David Wiseman so strenuously, as his methods are questionable at best. I am sure you would defend him a lot less if you knew just how much he talks about you behind your back. I should know. I used to be a friend of his.
Posted by Introspective  on  Thu Aug 18, 2005  at  06:00 AM
Perhaps the reason he may have talked about you behind your back is that you call yourself a "friend," yet can't even get his name right.

I don't defend David Wiseman. I don't even know a David Wiseman.
Posted by askolnick  on  Thu Aug 18, 2005  at  07:28 AM
all,
the bottom line:

- the ability of cold reading to determine an unknown is a proven ability
- natasha is unable to diagnose a patient by mere sight
- her claims of a "vision" which enables her to diagnose is thus dependent upon dialogue with the target person
- being able to view and talk to the person, natasha was still unable to determine three of the diagnoses.
- statistical significance is not even an issue in a test that obviously gave her the advantage of utilizing cold readings.
- as said before, why can natasha see through a person's clothing but not a fabric screen in front of the person. further, i am certain any test of natasha's VISION without being able to talk to the target individual will show she diagnoses no greater than chance.

cheer, bryan
Posted by posthocjollies  on  Sun Oct 02, 2005  at  08:43 PM
Kinetic Energy
Try to imagine nothingness.
To be none existing.
The begining and end of the spacial uneverse.

When you figure these ones out you will know.
Posted by B-RAd  on  Thu Oct 06, 2005  at  11:52 PM
Seriously... Here's my thought...
There must be a logical reasoning for all this...

First, Natasha's vision is probably base on certain light that enable to see through flesh and see organs.
There must be a reason she couldn't see the metal plate. Maybe she couldn't detect the metal because maybe her vision only allow her to see internal organs. That's why she isn't able to see through walls or something.

When she took that test in the US, she was very confident about it and wasn't aware of what was going to happen. That creates anxiety. Like not taking a PSAT before SAT 😛

She's young... She probably don't know a lot of the concepts of the human anatomy and stuff. She probably used everything she learned at her medical school. Her school probably doesn't know much because they probably never experience human body first hand (disection). Another words, poorly educated.

I believe she haven't heard of psychology yet. She learned about what other people generally talk about. Medical things. If she had heard of psychology I think she would also study it. It's an interesting subject. She could probably see human behavior, see parasympathic system, body temperature, sex drive, etc. in human body.

I don't know much myself. I'm 1 year younger than her. I just wish that people would stop the money-making, smart talk(degrade other), and arrogance... and start working together for a better future, not to deny other people's beliefs or opinion if they are reasonably helpful.

But I strongly suggest Natasha take psychology classes as well :D
Posted by Terablade  on  Fri Oct 07, 2005  at  01:52 AM
Comment Preview:

"There must be a logical reasoning for all" these apologetics for yet another psychic who doesn't past the test.

And it must be psychological.

Some people have a deep need to believe in myths and superstitions. So deep that they are willing to make up the most absurd excuses to explain away all
evidence contrary to their superstitious beliefs.

Notice how Terablade works from his closely-held belief that Natasha has supernatural powers and then gropes for "reasons" to dismiss her failure to do what she
claims she can do.

Question his belief in her supernatural powers? No way! That's not in his "psychological" makeup
Posted by askolnick  on  Fri Oct 07, 2005  at  05:35 AM
I'm not talking about her ability is psychological.
I'm just saying that there must be a scientific reason for this and it isn't psychological... What I said about psychology is that it's interesting 😛

It's not really supertition... it's not psychic nor beliefs. It's her ability. She claim she could turn it on and off... must be something she learned how to use to see other spectrum of light...

I don't really know much, but im trying trying to explain the facts as much as possible...

Seeing that she couldn't detect a metal plate was because it was metal 😛
The component of metal is.... ground, solid, thingys, dark, iron? haha RAWR!

Continue with your arguement 😛
Posted by Terablade  on  Fri Oct 07, 2005  at  08:40 AM
it is simple
to perform the miraculous, one must have faith in the power of the miraculous. Less faith=less results. (4/7)
Good thing for those who doubt as well as those who believe.
Posted by Chris  on  Fri Oct 07, 2005  at  01:47 PM
Chris said:

"it is simple
to perform the miraculous, one must have faith in the power of the miraculous. Less faith=less results. (4/7)
Good thing for those who doubt as well as those who believe."

Sorry, but that seems very simplistic, to say the least. If "miracles" are being performed, then they can be scientifically tested. If they fail, then there's no reason to think that they were miracles in the first place.
Posted by Cranky Media Guy  on  Fri Oct 07, 2005  at  02:19 PM
Terablade said:

"There must be a reason she couldn't see the metal plate. Maybe she couldn't detect the metal because maybe her vision only allow her to see internal organs. That's why she isn't able to see through walls or something."

There is a VERY GOOD reason for why Natasha couldn't see the metal plate: HUMANS CANNOT SEE THROUGH SOLID OBJECTS THAT AREN'T TRANSPARENT. Sorry, but it really is that simple.

I know you want to believe in her "abilities." When she fails a test, you grope wildly to come up with an explanation. Why are you doing that? She failed because she claims to have an ability that humans, to the best of our ability to test, do not possess.

There's nothing new about claims of extraordinary powers; it's been going on for as long as people have existed. She's just the most recent claimant.

Ever heard of Occam's Razor? This is the perfect place to employ it. Either she has X-Ray vision which, amazingly, can't work when she is tested scientifically OR she is lying. Which one is simpler and more likely?

It's fun to imagine things like X-Ray vision; I was a big fan of Superman when I was a boy. It's another thing altogether to believe that it exists in the real world.
Posted by Cranky Media Guy  on  Fri Oct 07, 2005  at  02:32 PM
A guy name Joe said "HUMANS CANNOT SEE THROUGH SOLID OBJECTS THAT AREN'T TRANSPARENT. Sorry, but it really is that simple."

By the way don't use the word grope cause someone already has use it against me 😛

Nothing is really simple. Everything in the world is more complex than you think. There's many possibilities for anything and you just haven't seen it yet because your crowded with everyday society and stuff.

I not saying I'm believing in her... I'm just wondering if anyone had any good conclusion in this, because I've seen what she had done on T.V.

I'm just amaze about how many people are saved by her, but CLEARLY ALL you people haven't SEEN the footage of her ability.

The fact is she is really helping a lot of people out there. Impressed or not impressed she "sees" it.

I can't believe this is the wrong place to talk about this, because it's the museum of hoaxes. This place is consists of people who are jealous, arrogant, narrowminded, etc...

I came here because I was searching for an article about this to investigate more about this for my curiosity.

The same channel I saw the "girl with x-ray eyes" also had another interesting discovery. Chimerism... Two different DNA in one individual.

Well I'm done here. If you don't believe in it don't bother to post because this IS the unofficial museum of hoax website
Posted by Terablade  on  Fri Oct 07, 2005  at  04:46 PM
P.S. to askolnick

"Malroy's comments show that he or she doesn't understand what the CSMMH/CSICOP test measured or how it was conducted." - one of the Argument Ad Hominem askolnick use...

askolnick it's clear that you don't understand how the CSICOP test was conducted. Also you've been attacking other people's comment instead of talking about why you've disappove of this whole thing.
"Notice how... doesn't understand... (insulting others by degrading them)"

You're basically ripping humanity. Have some silence and sincerity...

People these days...
Posted by Terablade  on  Fri Oct 07, 2005  at  05:27 PM
Repeat repeat repeat! This is the question no one is asking. You guys dropped the ball here (the skeptics), because if she is fooling us, you gave her believers plenty of fuel for the fire. This test should have been repeated at least 5 times, exactly the same, to establish repeatability and a pattern. I am a skeptic, but a slave to true logic. Sorry guys, but get her back there and retest her at least 5 times, no "pre-qualifiers:, etc. If she is faking, get the real goods on her. I think you guys injected a little of your own "offical" science in the testing process. If you want to get her, get her the right way and don't leave holes in your mathematical defense.
Posted by Jason  on  Fri Oct 07, 2005  at  08:48 PM
Terablade, when I said you don't understand what the CSMMH-CSICOP test measured or how it was conducted, it was not an adhominem attack. It was an polite explanation for the outlandish statements you made -- and it was a statement of fact. For example, you said, "Maybe she couldn't detect the metal because maybe her vision only allow her to see internal organs." Had you a clue about what Natasha does, you wouldn't have made such a silly statement.

You also blundered when you said, "skolnick it's clear that you don't understand how the CSICOP test was conducted." Wrong again. As one of the three investigators who designed and conducted the test, I understand how the test was conducted.

Terablade, you came here with an unbudgeable belief in Natasha's supernatural powers and offered up clueless rationalizations to explain away her failure to demonstrate any. Now you're whining about being criticize for those rationalizations. One reaps what one sows.
Posted by askolnick  on  Sat Oct 08, 2005  at  05:48 AM
Jason, the test was only a preliminary, uncontrolled test to see if there is evidence that warrants more a carefully controlled study of Natasha's claimed abilities. That was the condition specified in the written test protocols everyone agreed to. The test found no evidence that warrants testing her any further. There is no need to test her 5 more times. Our test and the other observations we made in our investigation show nothing supernatural is going on. It's yet another case of a young woman who is good at performing cold readings.

As for why the test wasn't a well-controlled, double blinded study, we were not given that option by Discovery Channel's producer and Natasha. So we designed and conducted a preliminary test to see if there is justification for a more carefully conducted study. We found none. Of course, we anticipated that there would be plenty of Natasha's apologists complaining that the test was not ironclad. It was not supposed to be. Too many people just can't seem to grasp the fact that it's not the obligation of researchers to disprove a claim. It's the obligation of the claimant to prove it. Many claims are simply non-falsifiable. There would be no amount of evidence that could ever prove to Natasha's supporters that she has no supernatural powers.

Once again, we did not set up a test to prove Natasha is a "fake" or to "get her." Sorry to disappoint you Jason, but that wasn't our goal. We simply performed a preliminary test to see if we found evidence that would warrant further study. We found no evidence that would support any further inquiry.
Posted by askolnick  on  Sat Oct 08, 2005  at  06:20 AM
askolnick,

Thanks for responding. I am going to have to disagree with you on this one. I appreciate the points you made, but I feel that it would serve your organization better to automatically establish a minimum number of test batteries to scientifically conclude a positive or negative result. I just feel that your current setup gives ammunition to those out there who say the test was incomplete and that she really does have powers (or anyone else claiming, etc.).

If you guys would have setup 5 exact but separate tests and the results were consistently in the range of guessing, then you would have nailed it down. I think the pre-qualifier your organization has devised is off-track and should be revised into a proven scientifically and mathematically repeatable battery. This would greatly benefit you when facing the gullable masses...😊
Posted by Jason  on  Sat Oct 08, 2005  at  06:39 AM
The things kids do these days. She had a claim. They tested it. She didn't past the test. It's like my mom asking the lottery to describe their numbers. On the bright side I thought the scientists were sharp as a tack. GOD BLESS AMERICA! I LOVE NEW YORK!
Posted by K7  on  Sun Oct 23, 2005  at  09:49 PM
askolnick says:"Once again, we did not set up a test to prove Natasha is a "fake" or to "get her."

Would you admit it if you did? I think not. I do think your test was at the very least inadequate.

I saw the show on TLC. Read all the accusations and answers on the CSICOP website. Disappointing. Not Natasha, but CSICOP.

The testing methodology utilized by CSICOP was flawed. Surely you could have done better than that. The second round of testing could have been set up to remove all doubt about the young girl's talents, but it appeared that the test itself, the environment and the means with which it was administered was meant to cause failure. If that's the best science can come up with...well, let's just say that it's NOT the best and casts a shadow on the credibility of CSICOP.

And you bamboozled her on top of it, took advantage of a little girl. She clearly stated that she couldn't diagnose two of the seven. You told her that she could get those wrong and still pass, when you really should have removed the two and set something else up. Flawed and unacceptable scientific methodology.

Further, this is presumably a "psychic" power. So the girl's mental state was of supreme importance to truly identifying whether or not her ability was real. Everything in the second test looked like it was meant to squash her mental state, cause stress and result in her failure. The setup was unnecessary to proving or disproving her ability, it was only necessary if she was being set up for failure.

I was really hoping CSICOP would do a better job than that. Like I said. Disappointing.

And you know, even with all those handicaps, statistically speaking...she passed the test anyway.
Posted by Archangel  on  Mon Oct 24, 2005  at  12:49 AM
One other thing. She obviously does not have "x-ray vision" that allows her to see through objects. From her own description, it appears that she sees the energy flows of the body. This would be similar to claims of those who believe they can see the aura or the bio-electric energy field of the body. Cloth close to the body would mask the energy much less than cloth hanging out in front. I would also hazard a guess that she would see where there were problems with that energy flow, points where the body was ill or having some type of problem. For instance, the person without the appendix. What was "wrong" with that person? You don't need an appendix, if the appendix had been infected and about to blow, Natasha would have probably identified it immediately. Then there was the whole way CSICOP set up the "pick one illness (or not)" for each person. Look at them all at once, pick one and then move on. Come on, that was a supremely foolish means of testing. There were much better ways to test.

You could tell from the way the CSICOP members spoke that they wouldn't have believed had she been 100% right in every one of their flawed tests.

The powers are psychic, and to throw the girl off was unfair. But I think that was CSICOP's goal, to show her wrong no matter what. And you know what? If it wasn
Posted by Archangel  on  Mon Oct 24, 2005  at  01:03 AM
Forgot to comment on this jewel of a statement:

"We simply performed a preliminary test to see if we found evidence that would warrant further study. We found no evidence that would support any further inquiry."

Especially as a premiminary screening test, the method employed was totally and fatally flawed. But even if it were adequate, the results clearly required further inquiry. This is even before you factor in the errors made by the CSICOP team.

Heck, the girl just might be a fake or deluded, but CSICOP failed to provide suitable scientific evidence to show that.
Posted by Archangel  on  Mon Oct 24, 2005  at  01:38 AM
Let me also comment on this jewel of a statement:
"We simply performed a preliminary test to see if we found evidence that would warrant further study. We found no evidence that would support any further inquiry."

No. Especially as a preliminary screening test the second phase of the testing performed by CSICOP was fundamentally and fatally flawed. Even if it were not flawed, the results clearly indicated further inquiry.
Posted by Archangel  on  Mon Oct 24, 2005  at  01:45 AM
Oops! Posted that baby twice by accident! I thought it got lost in transit...looks like my posting skills are fatally flawed...😉
Posted by Archangel  on  Mon Oct 24, 2005  at  01:47 AM
Archangel,

"Would you admit it if you were [a hired shill working for Natasha's agent to rationalize her failure to past the test?] I think not." I do think your arguments and false statements are "at the very least inadequate."

You resort to absurd arguments like the one you started with because you have neither facts nor reason to make your case. Your comments are either clearly false or as illogical as the one you start with -- that we are probably guilty because we deny our guilt. This is the logic of the Dark Ages, when they convicted "witches" on the basis of accusation supported by the accused's refusal to admit guilt. It seems to me that the logic of the Dark Ages may appeal to you at least as much as the period's unquestioned belief in the supernatural.

You've made no effort to get your facts straight. There was not two tests or test phases but one. Natasha does not claim to see "auras." Nor does she "diagnose." She says she sees organs, tissues and foreign objects inside of people's bodies down to the cellular level and by doing so, she looks for abnormalities -- including signs of long healed health problems. It appears that you are simply parroting the latest rationalizations being circulated among Natasha's apologists to explain away her failure to demonstrate the supernatural abilities she claims. And no, she did not pass the test. Merely repeating falsehoods do not make them any less false.

You and her other supporters are simply making up claims to explain away her failure, but you fail to back up those claims with anything but misstatements and baseless opinions.

You began your unreasoned tirade by chastising us for setting up a test to "prove Natasha a fake." And you end by chastising us for failing to prove that she's a fake. There are only two things consistent in your arguments: Your belief in Natasha's supernatural claims and your unreasoned hostilitity towards us.
Posted by askolnick  on  Mon Oct 24, 2005  at  06:07 AM
You're a slacker, Skolnick. Your attempt to twist my statements is as ludicrous as is the scientific methodology you purport to utilize. Instead of actually addressing the arguments, you resort to insults and intimidation.

To illustrate this, one merely has to look at my statements and your interpretation of the same. For instance, I questioned whether or not you would admit it if the test were indeed set up to cause failure. This in no way indicates any thought on my part that you are guilty by "dark age" reasoning that because you failed to admit guilt, that you were indeed guilty. Silly, Skolnick. It merely questions if you would actually admit it if you did set up the test for failure. it draws no conclusions of guilt from failing to admit guilt. Nice job getting things off track Skolnick.

What this shows me is that you either purposely misunderstand and twist things or that you don't truly understand what you are reading. Bad for scientific methodology, either way.

One thing that does make me think you are guilty are the unbelievable lengths you go to in your offensive attacks to defend your scientific methodology. That and your methods were flawed. Even your math is flawed.

There were TWO phases of your test. First phase (or section) of the test was with five persons, the second phase was with seven people. Simple. Are you even really Skolnick??

As for what the girl actually sees, I think you are the one who really does not understand what the girl is seeing. I can excuse verbal gaffes from the young lady who does not know English and doesn't know proper medical terminology, but you are a completely different story. You didn't do your homework on many levels. Your testing was so pathetic that you in no way proved she was a fake. You merely proved that CSICOP is either inept or just a fake.

My hostility towards CSICOP is completely reasoned, and comes from my own thoughts and observations. I happen to agree with your critics, which doesn't make me a parrot.

I'm not even a supporter of Natasha. I merely would have liked to see a series of fair and reasonable tests that showed whether or not she could do what she claimed. CSICOP failed. Miserably.

Statistically speaking, four of seven is passing the test. No matter what your "higher bar" expectations were, or what your "agreement" of testing conditions was. Plus, I think you cheated by setting up a hostile and uncomfortable environment and changing the rules at the last minute.

Your attacks on my comments are actually pretty funny. Dark ages and all that. The twisting of my words is nice, too. I never said she saw auras; I said it might be something like that. Seeing some type of energy that she translates into an image of internal activities of the body. The girl may not even know what cellular means. You didn't bother to truly research all that, did you?

Continued below
Posted by Archangel  on  Mon Oct 24, 2005  at  10:57 AM
Skolnick, I really enjoyed your attacks on word utilization, for instance the word
Posted by Archangel  on  Mon Oct 24, 2005  at  11:01 AM
On reflection, maybe I did say that I thought she saw auras. However. The real point I was trying to make was that she is young, uneducated and inexperienced. So, she may not have the proper tools to describe what she is seeing. To make sure of this would require research and detailed questioning of Natasha. CSICOP didn't do this properly. Instead of addressing that lack of preparation and investigation, we merely get the "Attack-of-the-insulting-Skolnick". A dark-ages b-movie. Heh....
Posted by Archangel  on  Mon Oct 24, 2005  at  11:15 AM
This is hilarious. I just can't stop laughing at the way you took my words and twisted them. I like the "hired shill" part. I tell you, if they did hire me to rationalize her failure, I wouldn't be doing here on this forum. I'd be on The Learning Channel doing a show that debunks your pathetic tests, and I'd have a spot on CNN where I'd really set up a smackdown of CSICOP's inept and obviously biased "investigation". Yeah, get me professionally involved.

Right now I'm just a viewer that didn't think your methods or motivations were good.

Natasha may be fake or delusional, but you guys are a joke. I'm not certain when this first aired in the USA, but I just saw the show last night. When I first saw the title, I thought it was a b-movie from the '50s or something. Then when I saw it, I was appalled by the lack of professionalism on the part of the CSICOP members. Outrageous.
Posted by Archangel  on  Mon Oct 24, 2005  at  11:32 AM
Archangel, I haven't twisted your words. That's the way they come out of your fingers. Merely repeating falsehoods, as you continue to do, will never make them any truer, nor will twisting the facts into even bigger knots make them easier to swallow. Anyone comparing your comments with the facts on record should see the kind of game you're playing. Like your criticizing us for not testing to see whether Natasha sees "auras," and then denying you said she may be seeing "auras." You demonstrate absolutely no respect for the truth.

A review of the written test protocols will show that your claim that the test had "two phases" is false:
http://www.csmmh.org/demkina/demkina.protocols.doc

There was only one test which consisted of one phase. The demonstration Natasha performed the day before the test was not part of our test. The fact that you would repeat the falsehood instead of admitting error hardly serves your credibility.

Nor does your repeating falsehoods like a parrot: "Your testing was so pathetic that you in no way proved she was a fake."

Only badly misinformed or dishonest people have been making this accusation. From the beginning, we made it clear that our test was NOT designed to prove anything. It was a fact-gathering test to see if further study would be warranted. That you would keep repeating such demonstratable falsehoods incicates you have no interest in fair or honest discourse.

The rest of your baseless accusations have been answered here repeatedly. That you would simply ignore the answers is not surprising.
Posted by askolnick  on  Mon Oct 24, 2005  at  11:33 AM
"There was only one test which consisted of one phase. "

I see. The first part with the five individuals, which I and many others took to be part of your test wasn't part of the test at all.

That's disappointing because I thought it was a far more legitimate test than the one performed with the seven individuals. It just makes CSICOP even less credible.

Plus, the documentary made it seem like it was part of the test. Which, I would think is a valid assumption based on the fact that you flew her to NYC to test her...then the first element isn't part of the test?

And. You did twist my words. In no way did I claim you were guilty because you failed to admit guilt. Dark ages, not..
Posted by Archangel  on  Mon Oct 24, 2005  at  11:41 AM
[Nor does your repeating falsehoods like a parrot: "Your testing was so pathetic that you in no way proved she was a fake." ]

It's not a falsehood, numbskull. It's my opinion. There's a difference. It may be wrong, but it's not a lie.

I guess you've been attacked so much on so many sides that your defensive posture is automatic and goes right towards the theory that everyone is a hired shill or some nonsense like that.

"From the beginning, we made it clear that our test was NOT designed to prove anything."

If you made it clear, then I wouldn't be questioning you on it. But, just saying something doesn't make it true. It appears to me that you designed the test to prove she was a fake - whether she was fake or real.

That's what it looked like. To me.

Deal with it.
Posted by Archangel  on  Mon Oct 24, 2005  at  11:51 AM
My point to these posts is to let you know that in my eyes, the eyes of a television viewer who had just viewed "The Girl with the X-Ray Eyes" and who had no preconceptions or bias one way or another about either Natasha or CSICOP, the analysis performed by CSICOP was lacking and unconvincing.

The events on the show made CSICOP look like they were either inept or so one-sided that they concocted an unfair test that was meant to disprove any claimed ability by Natasha, whether she had the ability or not.

My opinion has been further reinforced by my reading other opinions on the web, both for and against CSICOP.

I am adding my voice to those who have expressed disbelief in CSICOP's methods, conclusions and excuses. I'm adding my opinion that CSICOP is completely biased and did a hack job on the girl with the x-ray eyes.

CSICOP members are insulting and hostile towards anyone who questions thier validity and methods.

I have no hidden agenda, nor am I some superstitious clod from the dark ages. I just see a bunch of old men who formed a group called CSICOP that appears to have no true scientific validity or agenda, and even when they admit to their mistakes, they cannot see the impact of those mistakes or the appearance their group makes in the public eye.

This whether or not Natasha eyes are x-ray or normal.

Obviously, any true discussion around the scientific or social merits of the CSICOP investigation is impossible.

Ooo, maybe we can have a heated discussion on my utilixation of the word "impossible" in that paragraph...or the use of the word paragrapsh...maybe it was only a sentence. How foolish am I? Sheesh.

By golly, you do like the word "parrot" though, don't you? I just love that....

Wanna cracker?
Posted by Archangel  on  Mon Oct 24, 2005  at  01:28 PM
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