During the 20th century, Padre Pio was one of the most famous and popular Catholic monks. He died in 1968 and was made a saint by Pope John Paul II in 2002. He was recently declared the Patron Saint of New Year Blues.
Pio was particularly famous for the supernatural phenomena associated with him. In particular, stigmata were said to have mysteriously appeared on his hands and feet. But
a new book argues that Pio faked his stigmata:
a book called Padre Pio and the Italy of the 19th Century, by historian Sergio Luzzatto says the wounds were self-created using carbolic acid and he claims to have found documentary evidence to prove it in the Vatican's secret archives.
According to
Wikipedia, this is hardly the first time charges of fakery have been leveled against Pio:
His accusers included high-ranking archbishops, bishops, theologians and physicians.
They brought several accusations against him, including insanity, immoral attitude towards women - claims that he had intercourse with women in the confessional (However, the same priest who accused Pio of these sexual acts later recanted his story and repented on his death bed.), misuse of funds and deception - claims that the stigmata were induced with acid in order to gain fame—and that the reported odor of sanctity around him being the result of self-administered eau-de-cologne.
The founder of Rome's Catholic university hospital concluded Padre Pio was "an ignorant and self-mutilating psychopath who exploited people's credulity." In short, he was accused of infractions against all three of his monastic vows: poverty, chastity and obedience.
In 1923, he was forbidden to teach teenage boys in the school attached to the monastery because he was considered "a noxious Socrates, capable of perverting the fragile lives and souls of boys."
Comments
I am not a theist, so I won't comment about your views on your deity. A friend of mine just forwarded me this site because she wanted to make a point about the unexplained supernatural occurrences which I do not believe exist.
For someone who is a theist your claims may be very valid, I was just posting from non-theistic perspective on something supernatural as if the two can be reconciliable. I guess I showed my friend that agnostics cannot convinced of anything supernatural regardless what the claim may be.
Thanks for your reply.
Elena
Yes, I was assuming that the comment about the "wrong locations" of the stigmata marks was a person who believed in a personal God but did not believe in the supernatural occurances associated with Padre Pio.
For someone who does not accept the existance of a personal God, then, of course, my argument would miss the mark.
I think your conclusion that "the person inflicting the marks was being guided by the Roman Catholic Church images" is worthy of discussion (although I personally think it is incorrect)
I don't think it's impossible to convince agnostics of ALL supernatural occurances. The agnostics that I know are open to new information.
Rob
After the Holy Spirit came to Jesus' disciples at Pentecost were not miracles still performed by God through the Apostles?
Rob
So many instances in my life, all proving the existence of some beings who help since Man fails most often.
Thank you!!!
On the matter of saints and the Holy Spirit... It is very unfortunate that in our part of the world, Asia, the majority of people are non-christian, and non-believers, and I feel that the Saints and the like are used by, in my belief, the creator to bring people of different religions under his roof and therefore under his care.. In a country where there are 75% Buddhist, and the rest a mix of Muslim, Hindu, churches of all kinds of saints, plus latter day, and assembly of God, Jehovah's witnesses etc. all these nominations proceed to for example, St. Anthony's church to get relief from their stolen and very physical possessions, and the items are restored to them. So in the midst of their meanderings to find a lost item, they have found an avenue to our god, via our saints.
The Holy Spirit is only known to the Catholics.. maybe the Christians but what of the others? not too well known as the ones who provide some comfort in the recovery of their lost goods.
They do say that God does work in mysterious ways.. so who are we to question.. as much as those who don't believe in Mary and her chaste delivery of Jesus.. can also knock God's choice of a mother for his son.. That again only to those who know our religion. So as long as whatever path brings whomever to the redeemer.. the end result is an achievement in his plan.. VAT - Value Added Totality = the un-perished bodies of the saints, why were they preserved? And why too are they bound to the Christian faith?
Actual people, encased in glass, a salutation to our faith, since there are none in any other faith. And the Bible readers who say that anyone who does not say "jesus" is condemned.. then too, like many of those who have expressed themselves in this page, there isn't a man or woman who leads a good life who will not be condemned, not because he is a good man, but because he fails to say "Jesus".. I think our God is a compassionate being, therefore the doors are open to all, even those who do not say "Jesus" and do not pray to the Holy Spirit because they know no different.
As an atheist who is married to a practising Roman Catholic (yes we have some fun times?), we have learnt to live with each others position, even though we may not accept or understand it. My wife has stopped trying to convert me and I have stopped trying to use factual or evidential based reasoning when considering matters relating to my wife
Although I disagree with you, your email is sincere and well written. However, I was bothered by your statement, "So, of course this Padre Pio case is one of self harm."
Why are atheists always jumping at ONE solution for everything? Even if you don't belief that there might be a supernatural involvement, why don't you consider non-supernatural psychological causes or unknown physical causes?
I personally believe Pio's case is a wonderful example of the workings of God. To the atheists out there I say that there is nothing that makes your preception of the World any more valid than mine.
Perhaps C.S. Lewis said it best when he wrote:
"If the solar system was brought about by an accidental collision, then the appearance of organic life on this planet was also an accident, and the whole evolution of Man was an accident too. If so, then all our present thoughts are mere accidents--the accidental by-product of the movement of atoms. And this holds for the thoughts of the materialists and astronomers as well as for anyone else's. But if their thoughts--i.e. of materialism and astronomy--are merely accidental by-products, why should we believe them to be true? I see no reason for believing that one accident should be able to give me a correct account of all the other accidents.
I was not a great believer of Padre Pio and never could understand why my aunt was so heavily into praying to Padre Pio who is now a Saint.
So on a day in March 2010, I goggled to read more about Fr. Pio - mainly because of one question our Parish priest asked, "have you read about Padre Pio? He had several gifts given by the Holy Spirit, in one person. For example Saint Pio could say the hidden sins of those who came for confessions".
Intrigued by this, I started reading about Padre Pio. I found several websites that provide experiences of other people with Saint Pio before and after his death (both).
So I started reading about his life and the more I read, the more I learnt about the life of Christ, Guardian Angels etc and how they feel about our actions. So I began praying to Saint Pio (always feel like calling him as Padre Pio)
About 2 days ago (in April 2010), after confession, I went near the statue of Saint Pio in our church. With a heart filled love for him, I am sure given by Jesus, I prayed to him asking for his help to repent for my sins genuinely. I felt a sensation in my head & shoulder area that felt like cold-air splashing. Disbelieving as I am, I looked up to see if I am standing under an air-con duct, but there was none. I felt this only while I stood under this statue of Saint Pio. Touched by what happened, I left in a hurry as I had to pick up my Children.
I want to test his existence even today, as claimed by one parent whose child was in a coma and who started praying to Padre Pio (1999), where the child came off the coma. Taking this opportunity, I want to pray with Saint Pio for healing for the child I met today who has been paralyzed for 2 years after being in a coma and where the doctors have confirmed that there is no cure.
Am I wasting time?
Other conditions that can vary from personality to personality include scars, burn marks, cysts, and left- and right-handedness. Visual acuity can differ, and some multiples have to carry two or three different pairs of eyeglasses to accommodate their alternating personalities.
If you study the mind you become an agnostic like myself. The only God there is, is our very powerful evolved brain capable of all these things. Too bad multiple personalities is a disease and not an actual gift because the patients do not have control of when they switch from one personality to the other. If they did, it could be the next step for human kind.
Don't you think that the term "daddy deities in the sky" is rather condescending? Why would you seek to ridicule the faith of billions of Christians, Moslems, Jews and people of other religions who believe in God.
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On this board last year I wrote the following to Elenaq. Is that you? Did you read it?
From last August regarding the location of Pio's wounds:
That really does not prove anything. At the time the marks appeared on Padre Pio in 1918 no one knew of the information that you mention - it was discovered later. Thus, if God had placed the marks on Padre Pio's wrists, Pio would have been considered a fake! God placed the marks in the place where people of the time thought they should appear.
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You write like a very intelligent person. It is time for you to advance to the next level. Level One: Ignorance. Level Two: the people who have come to reject religion because it does not match their definition of 'rational.' Often these people are persuaded by college professors who have been stuck on level two for a lifetime or a very long time. And, the third level: people who realize that we DO NOT KNOW everything. We are like the ant on the floor making pronouncements as if he was a god. Surely it is more logical to believe in a creator God than it is to think we are gods. Shakespeare's Hamlet said: "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
Aspire to this third level my friend. For, indeed, there are more things than are dreamt of in your Formicidae philosophy.
In other words Elle, since you are a self-avowed student of the powers of the mind, I am sure it will be no problem for you to give yourself the stigmata at will, using the powers of your evolved brain, which is the "only God there is" according to you. Please let us know how it works out.
Frank
You have just stated what is a self validating belief. Which is based on circularity rather than presenting evidence. Calling the opponent un-enlightened because they do not believe in your position is just a strawman. Rather than attacking the position why don't you present evidence instead. I do not claim to have evidence that "daddy deities in the sky" (i.e. God, Zeus, Allah, various gods or what have you, there are so many gods that the term daddy deities is inserted in order to include all of them not to be condescending, as you may be aware there are still pagan who believe in various gods which are not the God of the Bible) do not exist, but I don't claim to have evidence that they do. So far I am just requesting evidence. And stick to the same premise that Thomas Jefferson did:
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear. Thomas Jefferson
You reply:
"...daddy deities is inserted in order to include all of them not to be condescending, as you may be aware there are still pagan who believe in various gods which are ..."
Wow! You are condescending (in saying "you may be aware ... like I might not be aware there are pagans!) even when you, in the same sentence, state you are not condescending about something else!
Then you mention many names for deities but that is just confusing the issue. One half of the people in the World are either Christian or Moslem. They believe in the God of the Bible. There would be even more except the anti-God totalitarian governments of the 20th century used "blindfolded fear" to outlaw religion in some of the largest countries of the world. You should read a little about what atheists do when they achieve total power in a country. The Inquisition and Sharia law pale in comparison.
Indeed, countries containing high percentages of non-believers are among the most healthy and wealthy nations on earth (Paul, 2004). Of course, we must always distinguish between those nations where non-belief has been forced upon the society by dictators (
And you state:
"It just goes to show that atheism would be the most advanced level in our society if it is that we wish to improve of course.
We are not going to see eye to eye on this issue because you have been raised to believe morality is fixed and absolute when it is not. We justify killing in wars and to defend ourselves however we do not justify individual acts of violence that goes again the rules established by our society. We developed this rules because we are a social species and as a consequence we need to ensure order and civilization. Everything in the animal kingdom has a balance. We kill other animals for food, so do you think yourself better than a cow or a plant. I sure don
You state:
"We are not going to see eye to eye on this issue because you have been raised to believe morality is fixed and absolute when it is not."
I can just as rightly reply:
"you have been raised to believe morality is NOT fixed and absolute when it IS."
How is your assertion any more valid than mine? Answer: It's not.
Actually, I rather think you were not raised that way. but you probably were overly influenced by your professors in college.
By the way, a couple of factual mistakes in your reply:
1. There are many cases in the Netherlands of children being killed AFTER birth for reasons of euthanasia. If you would like sources for this statement, I would be happy to locate them.
2. Euthanasia is legal in the Netherlands. Assisted suicide is legal in Oregon.
There are the
religion is not based upon facts but your faith believing in something that is not based on proof.
i believe in padre pios stigmata regardless of proof if someone needs proof i believe all his miracles are proof enough. i do not know why god gives these painful wounds but i am merely human. who am to fathom what my gracoius lord does. i have no need to argue no need to disbelieve but to only have faith and trust in the lord.
god bless everyone
first, of just because some of the christian commenters here get fired up about this topic don't suppose they are wrong because of this. Disregard the commenters emotion, we are humans we have emotions, so what? so even mentioning that it there is a broad difference in emotions is pointless. name calling means nothing to both the commented and the commenter on who is right.
To the people who think the wounds are suppose to be in the wrist because physics says so ill provide a rebuttal as to why they can be in the palm and it all has to do with they way the romans crucified. I saw a history channel show about this specifically, i cant remember the name. the experts DID calculate that the hand would rip open if the hand and feet were nailed to a cross. However there are multiple ways to crucify. The nails can go directly through the palm if ropes were tied around the arms and if a small ledge was added to cross. This means the wounds may be in the correct place. The nail and rope combo is very plausible. the rope held up the crucified and the nail added pain (the Romans were very entertained by seeing pain as a form of punishment, hence, the purpose of the Colosseum and gladiator arenas at times. So a nail added dramatic effect and made the punishment more severe). If your argument is that they were self inflicted because they were in the wrong place, it is not the way to go about disproving this miracle.
Think about it. Saint Pio was and is the real deal, and that is why we all love him.
J. P. ( Toronto, Canada ).
Saint Pio is definitely no hoax.
For this historian Lugatto and the rest of the mob out there... Father Pio made very important statements in his lifetime... Forgiveness even when one was persecuted.
This is important... there many historians and experts etc etc etc .. blah blah blah.. etc etc...
However, there is so much evidence about Padre Pio and his miracles and prayers for all.
To those who doubt.... wait till you reach your death bed... and ask for forgiveness..
Alleluia Christ is Risen... Peace to All Men.
the stigmata in San Pio appears as a real reason that God is telling you what the scientists cannot define.
Science cannot define God or Life, however, God and Life can define science.... so all the scientific clowns out there have to think seriously what is Faith and Belief.....
would they trust flying up in an airplane that it is hanging in the hands of a man piloting it and not really the engineering marvel... Also wouldn't the pilot himself rely 100 percent in faith that the aircraft's engineering would respond to his controlling the plane.... believing that the engineers who built the aircraft could be trusted to keep the aircraft safe in the air.
How did they come to such beliefs and confidence so as to pilot an aircraft....
Is it faith in the engine... or the life that created the engine and the rest of the airplane? !
Back on Padre Pio... there have been many signs... simple.... but people want sophistication to believe in it....
God bless you non-believers and atheists.