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m4dg33k said:

"Maybe there's a reason why it applies so well to theoretical matters cause if everyone would go by it in real life, we would still be in caves drawing sketches on the walls with our own shit. 12 year life expectancy, hunt, eat, shit, sleep and sketch... simple enough?"

Huh? What does that have to do with the idea that, when presented with two possibilities, one should probably go with the simpler one?

"Oh, here's a more creative concept to use instead of occam's razor:
If something can be done through hard work and perseverence then there is a quicker and easier way to get it done.
Applying this concept may require some intelligence whereas all you need for the razor is heaping ignorance."

At the risk of repeating myself: Huh?

maybe it works, maybe it doesnt....i havent tried it. but to say esp doesnt work lol.....if ur idea of esp is hollywood movies..kk sorry dude yeah thats probably fake....and yeah i believe for the majority of people that think inside the box esp is fake...im sure the theory or relativity was fake too until Einstein took the status quo to school. keep an open mind or you will never experience anything new...always question everything but dont dismiss it just because it sounds "crazy"....

This makes very entertaining reading! I've been following several online discussion of this "metaphysical product" and have been amazed at the ever expanding gullibility of the human race and the degree to which folks mutilate English in discussing "Magneurol," which is, incidentally, a great name for a cure all placebo. Hopefully someone got paid very well for thinking of it! Very interesting... I should try making some weird pill... I could use a little extra cash.

I too can move small objects on a table with my mental powers... and read the thoughts of perfect strangers.

What if said:

"always question everything but dont dismiss it just because it sounds "crazy"...."

We don't dismiss it because it sounds crazy. We strongly question it because it has NEVER been proven when tested by a proper protocol.

Yes, that's right: ESP has NEVER been proven to exist. If and when it is, we will be forced to accept it. Speaking for myself, I will be happy to accept it if it is proven. It will make the world a MUCH more interesting place. I'm not going to believe in it, however, solely for the sake of having an "open mind." That's just silly.

Cranky,
If you cant see that your razor logic doesnt go well with creativity and development or progress in general then maybe you should read more and post less.

Eagle,
There is also a difference between being open minded and being gullible as What if pointed out
Nice sarcasm there on the esp tho...

It is fairly safe to say that hard data is still the best way to go about this and unfortunately the only one here who claims to have tried this pill has completely discredited himself or is at best part of a very small group which in turn would bear very little on the final conclusion.

The fact that the Magneurol people haven't conducted proper experiments using placebo, control and magneurol groups is suspect. They used some students and blindfolded them and got them to point to the campus after driving them around.... not good enough by any standards. And there are no names of who conducted the experiments or any detailed statistical data from the experiments not to mention it was back in 76. All they have is stories which could easily be optimistical interpretations of sloppy experiments.
If anything, the pigeon experiment shows that this product is useless or worse. Maybe the pigeons who were fed the stuff from birth developed a resistance to its toxic effects and were able to perform almost as well as normal pigeons. The ones that were fed the stuff after they were weaned got all messed up. And what kind of researcher doesnt include a reference group? or maybe the magneurol marketing team conveniently left that out of the presentation... the group that was fed normal food maybe had 0% loss (they were homing pigeons after all).

For those who dont know what i'm referring to go here: http://www.magneurol.com/how_it_works.html

If they are selling a lot of this stuff we should see a lot more feedback soon. And if it works as they claim, this product will be on every shelf in every store selling for the same price as vitamin C in less than 1 year.

m4dg33k said:

"If you cant see that your razor logic doesnt go well with creativity and development or progress in general then maybe you should read more and post less."

Why don't you walk poor stupid me through it, Einstein?

Cranky,
I dont really need to teach you anything... you study the razor concept a little more in depth and then you will see it doesnt always apply the way you think.
I give you a hint: A cube can be defined by 8 points and it's a very simple structure, right?
If you take away 1 of the points, you have less points but the structure you're left with is more complex.
Symmetry and pattern carry a lot of weight also, it's not always about the number of elements so you can't throw out creativity.
Here's some homework for you:
Which one of the following 2 strings is "simpler":
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10
1,2,4,9,5,10,8

If I were to guess that proprietary blend is most likely close to 100% DMAE. The "magnetitum is essentially magnetized iron" (http://www.magneurol.com/benefits_mind.html) and it's most likely around 10mg.. they wouldnt want people to OD on iron.

Anyone interested in this theory/product just keep your multivitamin close to a magnet before taking it and get some DMAE. Save $49

...I think this is great - I mean - marketing the idea that you can increase psychic ability by simply ingesting a pill. It's beautiful. I love pills and placebos. In America, there's a pill for anything and everyone. God Bless the Pharmacy.

to me m4dg33k makes total sense since hes obviously done his homework and is quite familiar with esp, quite recently this is becoming more popular becuz it is actually attainable and were all born with it, we just have to open, i mean it does take a lot of special exercises and time (like years) but is very possible, we do have a part in our brain that subconsciously scans the environment 24/7 and this is one of the "6th senses" that we have, also it relatively easy to actually move the arrow on a compass even for a beginner, and moving a cup across a table is harder then actually lifting it thru esp, why? study physics and youll know friction is a force. By the way to advance/evolve you must first accept that its or anything is possible, once youve done that, you can go on to striving for the goal you wish, for example you keep saying ur gonna do bad on an example, you probly will.

IgnoranceIsBliss said:

"we do have a part in our brain that subconsciously scans the environment 24/7 and this is one of the "6th senses" that we have, also it relatively easy to actually move the arrow on a compass even for a beginner, and moving a cup across a table is harder then actually lifting it thru esp,"

Oh? What part of the brain would that be? Can it be seen by a CAT scan or MRI? If not, how do you know it exists?

By the way, IIB, if you can move a teacup using only ESP [sic], there is a Million Dollar Prize just waiting for you to take it. Are you up to the challenge?

i will attest that there are things in this world that are unknown to science and that there are even things that will never be known. are there alternate realities? orther worlds inhabited by sentient beings? i think its a possiblity. is ESP real? maybe. i agree that without scientific proof it holds no weight either way it goes. i believe in having an open mind and for all thats worth anyone who would think that there is a magic pill for this is gullible as hell. that said, more than likely, if there were some part of the human mind that could perform these acts or sense these things, it would have to be exercised to be hightened. theres no magic pill to give you rock hard abs (although many people like to think there is) this doesnt boil down anything other than a steaming pile of bullshit. arguing over the finer points of razor logic isnt going to prove or disprove anything. buying this and testing it isnt going to prove anything because even if you take it and disprove to yourself that its fraudulent, there are 20 thousand other idiots out there who wont listen to you. and even if they did, you still gave them your 49 bucks. way to go if you wanted to fan the flames.. its total crap..

well i'm glad there is no fundamental theorem of life that would automatically deny the existence of something new... the rest is up to everyone's personal approach: from poor gullible guinea pig and rich meditate all day delusional vegan to the most skeptical person and everyone in between.

speaking of pills and muscles, how does the discovery of steroids back in 1930s come into play here? I can picture many narrow minded retards before the discovery giving the "no shortcuts, only hard work" speech.

The Equinox are listening

hey lets end the discussion with, if it sounds crazy who cares, and if u haven't tried the product don't knock it, cuz what sounds even crazier then a pill that may give psychic abilities finally after millions of years in creation is god...now isn't that crazy to believe in something u haven't seen, spoken to or touched in your entire existance..but why believe? cuz he was advertised, a book told u he exsists and to believe so then u did, now an ad for a simple pill u have a choice to purchase or not to purchase sounds crazy? ha! hypocrits.

TheOne said:

"then a pill that may give psychic abilities finally after millions of years in creation is god"

Well, I wouldn't say believing in God is "crazy." I would call it irrational.

Your logic here seems to be "if something is crazier than the thing in question, then the thing in question isn't crazy." That doesn't make sense. There can be more than one "crazy" thing in circulation at once. Belief or non-belief in God has no relevance to the a pill that allegedly increases ESP. The pill is quackery, pure and simple.

For all you guys that want to spout about the big $1,000,000 reward for proving psionics, and "How could it be true if no one proved it yet in a lab for all that money???" It isn't nearly that simple. They require a SINGLE person to demonstrate ALL the various fields of psionics. There have been instances under close lab supervision where someone broke a key (not his own, one provided for him) and of course, they wrote it off as being a possible illusion, although how the hell could it be an illusion in a lab? OK, even if you think it was, that does not explain when the person could draw pictures very simular to pictures the scientists drew that day without the person physically seeing the picture. Also, most people that can do these things are too secure with themselves to give a fuck what others think, so they don't care if you believe or not. And yes, throughout history people who didn't want to accept new ideas HAVE held us back, think about the 50's, everyone just wanted to keep everything the way it was, and never change anything, and thus racism, bigotry, and ignorance, and that would have surely been simpler. Basically for cranky's "logic" about the razor, if it can be called that, is held only in theory. New ideas do cause change, when prehistoric hunters used spears to kill things, and suddenly one of them decided to use a bow, what happened? That person's whole tribe took it up, and then that tribe killed off all their rival tribes and got more meat. What do ya know? One of a million examples where complexity causes progress. But if Cranky were a neanderthal back them, him and his tribe would be trying to kill with the good ol' simple shaft and point, why change simplicity if it works? Socoms Razor right? Simple. This is why: Because the tribes that took advantage of the more complex method weren't eliminated by the theoritcal "razor", instead THEY eliminated the half-witted spear wielders who couldn't grasp or use new ideas, I can just see the bloodbath as hundreds of swift arrows rained upon the losers of human lineage, elimination by natural selection. Keep in mind if you want to argue on the side of simplicity for progress that you should be prepared to take a spear against a bow, you would die as fast as the meaningfulness of your arguement.

SimpletonSmasher said:

Your logic is very flawed. What it seems to boil down to is the notion that because something, somewhere was doubted by people but later turned out to be correct, we should simply accept the reality of another, completely unrelated idea. That makes NO sense.

"But if Cranky were a neanderthal back them, him and his tribe would be trying to kill with the good ol' simple shaft and point."

Do you know ANYONE who doubts the efficacy of a pointed object as a weapon? What law of physics does that violate? The things I and others on this board argue with are ones which seem to violate known laws of physics and for which there is little or no evidence.

Time and time again, people like you come on here with this silly "argument" about how something, somewhere was doubted by someone and it later was proven correct, therefore the thing currently under discussion must also be real. Time and time again, we skeptics refute this false argument. Seriously, do you not see the fallacy in this line of thinking?

Yes, many years ago, a lot of people didn't believe that the Earth was round. Yes, we now know that the Earth IS round. That, however, in no way proves that Troy Hurtubise has invented a machine that can see through solid objects or that Sylvia Browne can talk to the dead or any of the other dubious things we discuss here. The burden of proof, now and always, is on the person who is proposing an extraordinary idea. In layman's terms, put up or shut up.

If things can do what their proponents claim, then they should be able to do those things under scientific testing. If they can't, there is NO reason for a rational person to accept the claims made for them.

The point most skeptics fail to see is that they are the ones who are first to try to deny and to put an absolute and definite end to the proponent's idea without even looking at it closely. This is a mistake.
The fact that other crazy ideas have been found to be true proves that the skeptic is ignorant if trying to do this.
The person who considers the possibility of it being true does have better chances of getting his genes passed on for a longer time.
The marketers of this pill are obviously playing on the claimed results outweighing the serious lack of proper scientific evidence and still generate sales.
The sales grow if word of mouth is positive and die if not. Worst case it's just an overpriced multivitamin.

It can take 3-5 years to properly test and get conclusive results on drugs. If some independent feedback would start to show up in significant amount and if it would describe spectacular effects (more than the effects of DMAE combined with B complex), that would keep me interested..
but there's nothing and time is against the magneurol team.
They may be well intentioned delusional people though, maybe Mr Peppin has listened to one too many of his brain entrainment tracks and has become too spaced out and got conned into marketting this thing.

m4dg33k said:

"The point most skeptics fail to see is that they are the ones who are first to try to deny and to put an absolute and definite end to the proponent's idea without even looking at it closely. This is a mistake.
The fact that other crazy ideas have been found to be true proves that the skeptic is ignorant if trying to do this."

This is absolute nonsense. A thing can either do what is claimed for it or it can't. It's that simple. We're not failing to consider the claims, we're asking that they be tested. What isn't fair about that?

You would like us to accept the claims at face value without any evidence. Sorry, that ain't gonna happen. Nor should it.

What we believe is not relevant to whether the thing in question is real or not. It either is or it isn't and that can be determined through testing. I'll say it again: it all comes down to "put up or shut up."