Coydogs. Are they real creatures, or just the stuff of urban legend? As the name implies, a coydog would be a cross between a coyote and a dog. But according to Chrissie Henner, a biologist at the Massachusetts Division of Fisheries and Wildlife, they're an urban legend. She says that "there has never been any physical evidence of a half-dog, half-coyote animal." Not that it would be impossible for the two species to mate and produce an offspring, just very unlikely. Though Henner also points out that the mating cycles of the two species differ: "Coyotes go in to heat between January and March and have pups in May or June, while dogs have their pups in winter." So if animal experts such as Henner are correct that there's no physical evidence of the existence of coydogs, then what exactly is the Sundance Coydogs site selling? Are these coyotes, or dogs that look coyote-like, or real coydogs?
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However, saying it's possible doesn't mean you should try to get a coy-dog (cog? doyote?). The aforementioned wolf hybrids generally make pretty poor domestic animals. There's a good reason to pick pets (e.g. dogs or cats) that have already been selectively bred for several thousand years for the ability to live harmoniously with human families.
Humans and chimpanzees, for instance, can't and never will produce offspring from a mating, no matter how many times they try. Lions and tigers, on the other hand, can produce offspring (it's called a Liger or a Litigon)--which means that taxonomically speaking, the two 'species' are a lot more closely related than was originally thought.
It's an established fact that wolves and dogs can interbreed, because dogs basically ARE wolves for all intents and purposes. Originally, the only reason wolves and dogs were classified as different species was due to the hubris of scientists a few hundred years ago--it was unthinkable that the 'evil monster wolves' of European stereotype could possible be closely related to faithful Shep the family guardian.
Basically, the coydog question boils down to this: how closely related to wolves are coyotes? Keep in mind: the steppenwolf and the chihuahua are members of the same species, separated by ten or fewer centuries of extensive controlled breeding. Coyotes and wolves are a lot more similar to each other (but then that in itself proves nothing).
Me, I'm an empiricist. The best way to settle the question for good, in my thinking, is to put a coyote with a dog and keep them in isolation until they produce a litter. Document the whole experiment with video and sell it to the Discovery channel.
That's a much more sound scientific process than simply taking the word of a researcher in a lab based on taxonomy that is questionable. (Who can't even get her info on dogs correct, incidentally.)
Also, if lions and tigers, horses and mules, horses and zebras, zebras and donkeys, and many others can interbreed, why not humans and chimps? While I've never heard of such a pairing, that might be because of human (or perhaps chimp) "morality" prevents it, rather than genetics. After all, humans and chimps are much more closely related than dogs and coyotes, so it wouldn't seem to be the genes that are in the way. After all, horses have 64 chromosomes and donkeys only 62, so that's a huge difference. Humans and chimps differ in only a few hundred genes.
When I first read this entry I was very skeptical that dogs could cross with coyotes (because of genetic differences) but now that I've researched further, it seems quite possible.
In fact, we've been separated from the chimps much longer than wolves from dogs -- millions of years vs. at most hundreds of thousands of separation.
Jaguars and leopards can cross, though, and they've been separate even longer than we apes.
The definition of species actually says that no gene flow takes place between the populations, not that the production of offspring is actually impossible. For instance, the common aquarium fishes, swordtails and platies, cross regularly in tanks -- most commercial swordtails apparently have platy ancestors. However, they don't seem to ever cross in the wild, so they're considered valid species.
Similarly, wolves and dogs never cross in the wild (and there are plenty of wild dogs), so they're separate species. According to DNA evidence they've been separate for tens of thousands of years, since dogs branched off the ancestral wolf lineage as specialized scavengers around human settlements. (They weren't "adopted" as pets until quite a bit later.)
The Sundance coydogs look like they could also be wolf hybrids, though they appear smaller than average than the wolfdogs I've seen (and the site reports their weight as being smaller). Wolf hybrids are popular where I live (north Idaho), and seem to go for around $300 or so. I don't see why dogs and coyotes wouldn't mate in captivity, especially if they were raised together (or they could have used artificial insemination, which seems like a lot of trouble to me 😊 ) BTW, most wolfdogs I've worked with are fairly nice, but they usually object to being handled or restrained.
As I was saying, they make pretty poor domestic animals.
Dog and coyote cross? Why not?
Human taxonomists like to define inflexible species (these days based on DNA rather than appearance) but nature is happy to cock a snook at human definitions and upsetting human taxonomists by producing hybrids in the wild.
A lot of hybrids are unsuccessful (unviable or infertile or easy prey), but plenty of others are turning out to be viable and fertile (females only, have to backcross the F1 to one or other parent species but the F2 generation are often fully fertile).
She did love to "pull,pull,pull" and also to run - she could range for miles given the opportunity.
Two different vets agreeed, independently, as to her ancestry. I believe the was the result of a breeding experiment, since she came from a family that raised "domesticated" wolves, and had a number of wolf-dog crosses at various times. Consequently, I am convinced that at least some wolf/dog crosses are possible. It seems logical to me that crossing
a cyote with a dog would also be possible, but I
agree that it might be quite unlikely between a
wild dog and a wild coyote.
Coydogs generally make poorer pets than wolfdogs because coyotes are generally solitary animals whose social relations are usually limited strictly to immediate family. This puts them at a disadvantage to wolfdogs as domesticatable animals because wolfdogs, while difficult to control and sometimes (though not as often as one would expect) dangerous to humans, are at least highly social animals and, therefore, trainable in the hands of a HIGHLY EXPERIENCED OWNER who has an EXOTICS LICENSE and KNOWS WHAT HE'S DOING. Taking in a wolfdog without at least these qualifications is nothing short of imbecilic.
(often) highly mixed ancestry must have been insufficient, in your view, since she remained a loyal, protective companion for nearly 19 years until she died. Once, she saved my life by disarming an
attacker, but did not pursue the matter excessively.
Maybe both of us were imbeciles.
I was merely trying to underline that toying with animals that one knows nothing about is generally a bad move, and I also tend to consider breaking the law a bad move. If you disagree, then I would like to hear why.
according to 3 different veternarians. Secondly,
you are assuming that I advocate breaking laws, and
have done so habitually. Third, you have no knowledge whatsoever of what my educational/training/experience
might have been. Therfore I must consider you more than a bit arrogant, supercilious, and more than a little obnoxious.
The first post wasn't even directed at you. It was written without forknowledge of your posts. I was commenting on the article at the top. Regardless of any faults you may find in my character, whether or not they exist, answer the following questions if you're interested in bringing this thread of conversation to a peaceful close:
1. Do you think that it is in the best interests of everyone, including the animals, that people interested in adopting exotic animals of any kind should follow the laws regarding them?
2. Do you think that it is generally wise to avoid adopting animals that one has little familiarity and no prior experience with?
3. Do people who adopt hybrid animals such as coydogs and wolfdogs as a status symbol without giving much regard to the well-being of the animal being adopted annoy you?
If we're in agreement on those three things, then we are completely in agreement, and if I expressed or appeared to express any sentiment other than the above, then just consider it void. I didn't make any assumptions about you. You're the one who decided to take offense and get all confrontational. I've been trying my best to be polite and have avoided attacking you, so if you want to get all piqued at someone, you've picked the wrong person.
If I said something that offended you before, then I'm sorry. I had absolutely no intention of hurting your delicate feelings. All I intended to do was voice the opinion that people shouldn't rush unprepared into adopting exotic pets without giving any regard to the animal's well-being or the law. You did no such thing, of course, but here's a clue for you: you don't live at the center of the universe. There are hordes of people out there who have millions of misconceptions about wolfdogs and coydogs, most of them in the government, and I was referring to people who rush into adopting exotic animals thinking it will make them 'cool' as imbecilic. You didn't even know that your late companion was a mix when you got her, so you are so far from this category that it's incredible to me that you could possibly think that I was referring you. I was referring to people who treat animals as ornaments, and if you'd turn on your malfunctional brain for a minute, I have a feeling that you'd find you feel the same in spirit if not completely.
I'm an aspiring writer, so sometimes what I write comes through sounding bombastic. It's unintentional, and I have absolutely no intention of being mean-spirited.
They looked like a cross between the coyote and some of the larger Walker hounds that were often used to hunt both coyotes and foxes.
I've also seen quite a few coyote (brought into the fur buying stations in our area) that were probably mixes. Most of them were a fair bit larger (esp. heavier) than a coyote, with reddish-brown fur that was somewhat "blotchy" especially on the back and shoulders. I vividly remember one pickup truck loaded with 10-12 of them and the negotiations over the price of their fur.
I can say that we had a coyote as a "pet" back in the 1960's and it was not a very endearing animal. It would only allow one neighbor boy and myself around it, though it was very friendly with us. The darn thing never used it's dog house, and instead dug a large burrow under the shed it was tied to. A good pet, but I released it after a couple of years, so it could go about living the wild life.
Also, my sister in law used to live with a man (in AZ) who raised "Wolfies" that were Shepherd/Wolf mixes. They didn't look anything like the coydogs, and were pretty good pets. Large and scary as hell though. LOL
So yeah, coydogs do exist. I've seen them first hand on quite a few occasions...
Hope I don't offend "The Reverend Muntz" who posted previously, but I'm sure that most everyone here do not care to consider his "aspiring writer" excuse to backhandedly insult others, to be anything more than the bleating of a loudmouthed, hybridized, buttmunch... LOL
This makes sense. In the wild, coyotes are either solitary or travel with their immediate families (mates and offspring).
(((The darn thing never used it's dog house, and instead dug a large burrow under the shed it was tied to. A good pet, but I released it after a couple of years, so it could go about living the wild life.)))
I wouldn't have advised releasing it. When wild animals get used to thinking as humans as a possible source of food, they are more likely to become dangerous. Fortunately, coyotes are cowards and unlikely to attack a full-grown human under most circumstances, so perhaps it wouldn't hurt anything in this case. Besides, I assume you have more experience with this than myself.
(((Hope I don't offend "The Reverend Muntz")))
You do. For starters, you spelled my name incorrectly.
(((who posted previously, but I'm sure that most everyone here do not care to consider his "aspiring writer" excuse to backhandedly insult others.)))
The thing is, I haven't backhandedly insulted anyone. You're reading too much into what I say. Try taking what I've written at face value. Harrison assumed incorrectly that my original post here was referring to his actions, and I have made it clear that I don't have the least problem with his actions in regard to the wolfdog. If anything, I consider them admirable. I was referring to a completely different sort of person.
Your comments about the volume of my voice and regarding my sexual practices are discarded on the grounds of at once being uncharmingly crass and possessing a complete absence of wit, and they make evident little more than an intellectual vacuum.
Don't generalize from one coydog to all coydogs (or all coyotes!). I've met perfectly domesticated Canis familiaris that were just as standoffish as this animal. Heck, my mom had a Doberman as a girl that would only tolerate her.
And yes, the red wolf has been demonstrated by DNA testing to be no closer to coyotes than any other wolf (in North America).
On a more interesting subject, I would like to say that I agree with Bill when he says that Tom Kilver shouldn't have released his animal in the wild. Bill says that they become more dangerous because they are used to be around humans (please don't call them "cowards", animals are not cowards, that is typical of people trying to explain animal behaviour by comparing it to human behaviour). I can see how that can be possible, but the first thought that came in to my mind was how they become less frightened of humans and can be killed more easily. I don't know the reality of coyotes in America, if they suffer human persecution, if they are shot, etc. I am a biologist working with wolves in Portugal and here we have a big struggle to keep our wolves alive since shepherds and hunters try to shoot or poison them. There were stories of wolves being raised in people's houses and they were taken to a "wolf shelter" because if they were released to the wild they would not fear Man and they would be the first to get a bullet because they'd get curious if they saw people on the wild and approach them, when those people might just be trying to get them... (I just want to say that here it is illegal to kill wolves as well as raise them as pets).
If my male pitbull finds a female coyote in heat, he's going to breed with it, and no coyote is going to stop him.
Never seen "Basic Instinct"?
😕
Regardless, the Sundacer coydogs ARE real coydogs. Most are F2 50%'s though which means they may look more like dogs than coyotes. They are NOT mixed with wolves (wolf hybrids look much different than these animals). I was recently reading a book called "The Dog: Its Domestication and Behavior" and it describes experimental breeding that was done between Coyotes and Beagles--it showed pictures of the resulting pups through 4 generations of breeding--so YES breeding between coyotes and dogs is entirely possible, ESPECIALLY in captivity.
Plese visit http://www.ucc.uconn.edu/%7EPSYCADM7/pres1.htm for more info on the beagle/coys.
Check out http://science-research-canid.itgo.com/coydog.htm for a picture of a beautiful F1 coyote cross (See the one blue eye? Coyotes don't have blue eyes--this proves that the animal is part dog)
Here is another article on Coydogs:
http://www.coydog.us/alune.html
~Seij
What I saw was a very nervous Vera "sniffing tails" with a coyote - she most definitely did NOT look like a happy camper but it was a coyote, never-the-less and they were most definitely sniffing one another. Vera looked rather distressed. The the coyote, by contrast, did not look particularly upset by the whole interaction but then he took off when he saw me approach.
Since Vera was obviously too big to be prey and since he was clearly "getting personal" with her, I would have to assume that if she were unspayed and in season, he would likely have mounted her.
One can only imagine what border collie-coyote puppies would have looked like but one thing is quite certain - they would have been very bright animals, indeed. Then again, one wonders would they have herded the sheep or eaten them? The whole thing sort of reminds me of the Gary Larson cartoon where a love-struck and rather foolish looking wolf is holding a bouquet of flowers behind his back and ringing the doorbell of a home where a sheep is about to answer the door. I can't recall the caption but it was something very ludicrous and amusing.
As for all this bru-ha-ha about whether they can or cannot mate or whether they are or are not inclined to do so, I can advise that it is most definitely possible for them to interbreed and, moreover, I am given to suspect that such is exactly what this young fellow had in mind.
I am quite sure that if Vera were in heat and then if I left her out there unattended on a tie-out that Mr. "One-Night Stand" Coyote he would have most definitely gotten the job done - and, worst of all- NOT brought her any flowers to boot!
~Seij
Actually, not totally unlike coyotes, female dogs are known to have distinct preferences in this regard, as well. Prior to Vera, I had acquired a golden retriever on a breeding contract from the breeder from whence we got her. When she came into season, on multiple occasions, no matter which stud dog the breeder would bring over, Seara was having no part of it. She would mercilessly tease and lead-on the various male dogs then viciously bite their face when they would actually attempt to mount her.
Seara, however, was exceedingly receptive to, Sammy, a neighbor's (rather coarse and uncoothed) large coon hound who was, in fact, quite successful in tieing her - fortunately, he was "fixed" so no coonhound-retriever puppies ensued.
One of the aspiring golden retriever stud dogs did, infact, give up on trying to breed her but settled instead to eat up all of her food, drink all her water and then move in - lock, stock and barrel - into her doghouse. When the breeder came to take him home, he absolutely did not want to go home - it seems he had planned to move in to Seara's spacious run.
Apparently this particular dog was not the top dog at the breeder's home (she had numerous other male dogs, one of whom was the Alpha dog). I supect that he figured he could elevate his status by starting a new pack of his own at my house. Perhaps he felt that Seara would eventually come around and he could start a new pack once the puppies were born (just what we needed). This fellow was most unhappy about returning home and even jumped out of the rear window as the breeder was pulling out of the driveway to drive him home
She is the right size and shape for a coyote. The notable dog parts are the nose and ears. However her body and tail are coyote looking. She is tall, 21" at the shoulder, and only 38 lbs. This is a very strange combination for a dog but is just about the perfect size for a coyote.
She howls more then she barks. which would suggest she is either part coyote or a dog closely related to a wolf, but she strikes me and almost anyone who sees her as having nothing similar to a husky or german sheperd , except the tail.
Being found in the wild, and healthy which is rare, also leads to thic conclusion. She is now 15, and there is nothing wrong with her. She is in perfect health. Coyote life expectancies are 15 years or more in the wild, and I imagine that domesticated coydogs could get that gene from either parent and would live longer in a home protected from the elements and with good healthcare and exercise.
As far as behavior, Angel is a gentle old lady, but very active, she seems to have some herding dog behavior. She is also very protective of me. If a fight breaks out at the dog park she comes to sit at my side, and reacts only if the fight reaches us. She neverr lets dogs mount her or play box with her, she reacts to over agression with an agressive display of her face that usually keeps them from trying the same thing again. But generally she is happy to just follow other dogs around and always keep moving (herder? coyote?)
Despite being fifteen she is always energetic. For example at the dog park on a hot and sunny day, when even one year olds lay down in the shade, she doesn't, she keeps on jogging and entertaining herself for the entire time we're there. Other people that see this are always impressed by this.
I did research on the difference between the tracks and gait of dogs and coyotes, what you would use to tell if there was in your backyard or if you were hunting. Here are two websites with info on this
http://www.naturepark.com/coyinfo.htm
http://www.gpnc.org/tracks.htm
I can assure you that everything in her foot print is coyote like. Her front paw is bigger then the back. She leaves only two sets of prints (she places her back paw into the print of front paw). Even her pad shapes and width of paw (space between pads and claws) say coyote. This is the best scientific test I can afford. I saw that someone was offering to sponsor a genetic test, and I would take them up on that as long as it was done properly.
The dogs at Sundance are studied very carefully for temperment and are handled by humans from day one. They are very careful about who buys their dogs and keep in touch with the owners. They also would take back a dog at any time that does not work out for the buyer.
Coyotes in the wild come into heat once per year. A low content coydog may have two heat cycles per year but the higher content coydogs only have one cycle per year.
If you interested in a rare breed dog, this is the only place to buy one that truly does guarantee that you can return the dog.
Since this discussion is so interesting and there are such varied opinions I would love to know what all of you think about the American Indian Dog and all the claims by their breeders?
~Seij
Dogs, just type in American Indian Dog Hoax
here.
You'll find some info about it.
The people on the Indian Dog Hoax site are far more accurate than any of the breeders of American Indian dogs.
Many people have been duped by this con man and when they find out the truth he tries to ruin their reputations by posting things about them on his website.
There is an Indian Dog site in the Netherlands called American Indian Dogs/Europe run by a woman named Wendy Schrivers. She is perpetrating the same hoax in Europe. Although most of her dogs have the original look of the Sibe, she has also added coydogs to her lines but denies it.
What isn't fair, among other things about all of this, is that you don't know you are buying a coy or wolf mix from these people and it is illegal to own them in many places.
They tell you that if the dog doesn't work out, you can return them but try doing that. They require you spay/neuter your pet but then they don't want them after that. They are of no use if they can't make money from breeding them.
Another thing the buyer needs to know is that they are not taken to vets and the first thing you need to do with your puppy is get it to a vet and get it wormed and get the puppy shots. They are often illegally shipped before they are 8 weeks old, too young to be weaned.
There is also a woman in Michigan who sells Native American Indian Dogs. I will give her credit for one thing. If you ask her a lot of questions, you are more likely to get an answer closer to the truth than you will from LaFlamme.
One more thing before I quit ranting. Don't believe the breed standard for the American Indian Dog. The female is supposed to be 35 or less and the male 45 or less. A lot of them weigh closer to 70 pounds and the females often weigh in about 55 pounds. So, if you are looking for a small dog, this isn't the way to go.
1. I've lived in Texas almost all my lives and commonly observed coyotes behaviour. I have seen what appeared to be domestic dogs, or cross breeds in their packs.
2. I have had wolf/shepard cross breeds most of my life and find them to be be wonderful protectors. yes, they are pack animals, very much so. That's why they make great family protectors. I've never experienced any problem with any of them, and never had any problem calling them off of whoever they were chewing up at the time.
3. I found Mr. Muntz's remarks to be in an offensive and arrogant vein myself. Possibly he should move down here where he would learn some civility and not a small degree of humility. Perhaps he will spend a little time expounding on my sentence constructs, mis-spellings, and so forth and give you people some peace 😊
~Seij
Her mother was a husky who ran away in the Sandia Mountains of New Mexico (where I used to live) while she was in heat. Apparently her father was a coydog, which avoids the whole "coyotes breed only at certain times" argument, which as a former New Mexican I can say is baloney, too--there's a reason coyotes are so successful, and flexible breeding is one of them.
I have heard and seen coyote packs killing dogs. My family labrador (a male) was killed by coyotes. Perhaps a female in heat has distractions to offer that may keep her alive.