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Water-Fueled Car
Earth2012 this month announced the launch of a major new project: they're going to build a water-fueled car. And they're soliciting donations to help them achieve this ambitious dream. Of course, a water-fueled car might raise a few skeptical eyebrows, but Earth2012 says the science behind their project is all very sound. The tank of their car will be filled up with water, but the water will then be converted onboard into hydrogen. So it's really a hydrogen-powered car, not a water-powered one. And hydrogen-powered cars, of course, already exist. What makes my hoax detector start ringing when I read about their project is their description of the onboard water-to-hydrogen conversion process. From what I understand, it takes quite a bit of energy to separate water into hydrogen and oxygen. This has always been one of the major stumbling blocks on the road to a hydrogen economy (the cost of producing hydrogen). But Earth2012 says that it has developed a 'revolutionary way of creating hydrogen from water.' This involves vibrating the water at exactly the correct frequency, thereby causing the water to easily separate into oxygen and hydrogen.
Maybe Earth2012 really has developed this revolutionary new process, though the details they provide about it are awfully sketchy. But it all sounds an awful lot like a water-as-fuel hoax, of which there have been many in the past... one of the weirdest being Guido Franch's claims back in the 70s that he had developed a cheap green powder that, when added to water, transformed the water into gasoline. Franch gave a few demonstrations of his powder, though never under scientifically controlled conditions, and his credibility took a bit of a blow when he confessed that the secret of the powder had been given to him by a group of spacemen from the planet Neptune. The Straight Dope has an article about Franch if you're interested in reading more about him.
Update: Parazyte has provided a link to an article (in English) about Daniel Dingel, a Filipino man who claims that he invented a water-powered car back in 1969. The rest of the site is in German, but click here to see a video of Mr. Dingel driving around in his watercar.
Listed in chronological order. Newest comments at the end.
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This definitely sounds like a hoax to me. I think you're right to approach this 'revolutionary' engine with skepticism. I mean, no hydrogen tank? No need to change the infrastructure? Come on, this can't be serious! Anyway, it reminds me of that famous line by Hyde, in 'That 70s Show': ''There's this car, and it runs on water, man. It runs on WATER, man!''
Posted by MetalMath on Mon Jul 12, 2004 at 07:57 PM
Even a "revolutionary way of creating hydrogen from water" is still subject to Conservation of Energy. Hydrogen is used as a fuel by combining it with atmospheric oxygen to produce water vapor; there is no way to get out more energy that was expended in separating the hydrogen from water in the first place. Until such time as nuclear fusion becomes an energy industry, hydrogen is an energy store, not an energy source.
Posted by Daniel Johns on Tue Jul 13, 2004 at 01:21 AM
If you've watched the film "Chain Reaction" with Morgan Freeman, Keanu Reeves and Rachel Weisz, then this should be very familiar. In that, a research team is trying to find a way of producing hydrogen from water easily, and the basis in the film is that they use something called sonoluminescence. The film came out in 1996 (see IMDB), and I recall that this was a year or two after some news claiming that the correct sound frequencies causes water to split into hydrogen and oxygen. That claim dried up, but inspired this film I guess. These claims were in turn soon after the Fleischmann-Pons cold fusion claims. I wouldn't be surprised if this Earth2012 are connected to the sonoluminescence claims.
Posted by Anon on Tue Jul 13, 2004 at 01:38 AM
I agree with the three earlier posters.
But anyway, how do they apply a "frequency" to the water? Do they microwave it? Do they shake it in a certain frequency? Do they apply a lightbeam of certain wavelength into the water? Maybe something even more creative huh?
Maybe they just scream at the water.
Even so, that means (just like Daniel Johns said) that you need to have energy in electricity (for the microwave), pneumatics (to shake it), batteries (for the flashlight) or hot dogs and coke for the guy who is assigned to screaming. Or maybe he can just drink the water if he is thirsty provided he hasnt turned it into hydrogen already....
Posted by parazyte on Tue Jul 13, 2004 at 06:43 AM
But anyway, how do they apply a "frequency" to the water? Do they microwave it? Do they shake it in a certain frequency? Do they apply a lightbeam of certain wavelength into the water? Maybe something even more creative huh?
Maybe they just scream at the water.Even so, that means (just like Daniel Johns said) that you need to have energy in electricity (for the microwave), pneumatics (to shake it), batteries (for the flashlight) or hot dogs and coke for the guy who is assigned to screaming. Or maybe he can just drink the water if he is thirsty provided he hasnt turned it into hydrogen already....
you can only drive it when it's warm or else the water will freeze up and you have an ice powered car... and if you get in a car accident the water will extinguish the flames!!
Posted by john in NH on Tue Jul 13, 2004 at 08:46 AM
If you're going to make water vibrate, it would probably be done with a speaker-like device. But even if that did separate the water molecules, you have to put the same amount of energy in as with other methods. You might be able to use less power but simply take more time to get a given amount of hydrogen. Using resonance effects usually only means you can deliver the energy you need in several small doses rather than one big one.
Posted by Matt on Tue Jul 13, 2004 at 09:15 AM
Physics is physics. Even at 100% efficiency in both seperating the water and burning the hydrogen, it takes more energy to seperate hydrogen and oxygen than can be produced combining them. Anybody who says different is selling something.
Posted by Terry Austin in Huntingtin Beach on Tue Jul 13, 2004 at 09:27 AM
Sounds fairly bogus. In the how it works section they plan to break down water into H2 and O2 then mix Hydrogen, Oxygen and Air to create combustion.
Interesting way of scamming tree huggers I guess. I like this part. "People who have donated å£1000 or more will be invited to witness this event in person"
Posted by Ron Lloyd in Canada on Tue Jul 13, 2004 at 09:32 AM
Interesting way of scamming tree huggers I guess. I like this part. "People who have donated å£1000 or more will be invited to witness this event in person"
Yeah, you've got to wonder why they separated the water into oxygen and hydrogen, then added extra air before recombining the two. Ideally, you wouldn't need any extra oxygen from the air to make the hydrogen burn.
Posted by Matt on Tue Jul 13, 2004 at 11:19 AM
Like John accurately pointed out, in regions where the temperature often drops below the freezing point (like here, in Quebec), a car powered by a big water tank would be quite troublesome, to say the least... It would need another power source (maybe pedals? 
) to keep the water from freezing.
Posted by MetalMath on Tue Jul 13, 2004 at 01:15 PM
) to keep the water from freezing.We're WAY past this..
Thanks to a guy named "James Watt"
Posted by v on Mon Jul 19, 2004 at 06:18 AM
Thanks to a guy named "James Watt"
a normal ICE engine wastes about 70% of its combustion effiency generating heat, and it gets around fine. Yes 100% efficiency would be nice, but so what if we have to change the batteries every so often, or have to use more water, I thought the idea was pollution control or fuel cost. This guys idea (if it does work) is a step in the right direction, we don't only have to produce alternative fuel source vehicles, but find some way to affordably retrofit the millions of vehicles on the road today. Not only for the vehicles themselves, but for the existing infrastructure of gasoline stations etc. Also preferably without Hollywood-style explosions of hydrogen tanks in accidents.
Posted by Gareth in USA on Mon Aug 09, 2004 at 10:49 PM
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/watercar/ - try this site for yourself and know the man behind the invention, before judging... this man has discovered the technology since 1967 beat that iceland!
and by the way before analyzing how to break hydrogen and oxygen to achieve "power storage" and not "power source"....browse through the site...and if your in the US VISIT him, Mr. Daniel Dingel, a drink of beer or two with him, you just might change your mind...
Posted by Enrico in Thailand on Sun Oct 10, 2004 at 11:45 PM
and by the way before analyzing how to break hydrogen and oxygen to achieve "power storage" and not "power source"....browse through the site...and if your in the US VISIT him, Mr. Daniel Dingel, a drink of beer or two with him, you just might change your mind...
I see that ppl like to comment without knowing exactly what they are talking about.
added air?
split system, petrol/hydrogen ICE
resonance of water?
look it up before you comment again... lol
Water is dissociated out of gas with average electric tension produced by impulses of D.C. current to high voltage (20 to 40 kV) at the frequency of 10-15 kHz. Inductance, in series with the Capacity starts resonances inside the molecule. Those cause to break the covalent bonds between the oxygen and hydrogen atoms, by using very little energy. The two gases thus separated remain it, until a sufficient energy is available to again recombine them in the form of water.
water freeze?
Are you serious you can't figure out one way of keeping your fuel from freezing. Wait, you are waiting for someone else to show you... naysayer...ha
-Basically either you are employed to deter, destract, and or disinform ppl.
-Well I guess you all could be the same 10 year old...
think outside the box
seth
Posted by seth on Thu Oct 28, 2004 at 07:28 PM
added air?
split system, petrol/hydrogen ICE
resonance of water?
look it up before you comment again... lol
Water is dissociated out of gas with average electric tension produced by impulses of D.C. current to high voltage (20 to 40 kV) at the frequency of 10-15 kHz. Inductance, in series with the Capacity starts resonances inside the molecule. Those cause to break the covalent bonds between the oxygen and hydrogen atoms, by using very little energy. The two gases thus separated remain it, until a sufficient energy is available to again recombine them in the form of water.
water freeze?
Are you serious you can't figure out one way of keeping your fuel from freezing. Wait, you are waiting for someone else to show you... naysayer...ha
-Basically either you are employed to deter, destract, and or disinform ppl.
-Well I guess you all could be the same 10 year old...
think outside the box
seth
right..no offense science lovers physisist's and scientist's..I am not used to getting flamed, but I guess its a question of IQ, well why wont you sign up to the said yahoo groups so "you" would have an idea of "your own" of what the 10 year old is saying, while not having the world scientist's look at your comment of "wanting" to win a nobel award for nice comment?.
anyways give or take the site does offer proper explanations for the 10 year old scientist "wanna be" like me.
"I see that ppl like to comment without knowing exactly what they are talking about."
water freeze?
"Are you serious you can't figure out one way of keeping your fuel from freezing. Wait, you are waiting for someone else to show you... naysayer...ha"(and please dont bother putting down a fellow naysayer uhmkhay?...umkhay...)
-Basically either you are employed to deter, destract, and or disinform ppl.
..yup takes one to know one...
-Well I guess you all could be the same 10 year old... "momma bought me a nu 'puter"
"think outside the box seth"
...and you know what ..."Parazyte"...LOL
as was said in "Engrish Okey"
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/watercar/
-could someone lend me a dollar? I think I need a new brain.
Posted by Enrico in my bedroom with teddy on Fri Oct 29, 2004 at 01:25 AM
anyways give or take the site does offer proper explanations for the 10 year old scientist "wanna be" like me.
"I see that ppl like to comment without knowing exactly what they are talking about."
water freeze?
"Are you serious you can't figure out one way of keeping your fuel from freezing. Wait, you are waiting for someone else to show you... naysayer...ha"(and please dont bother putting down a fellow naysayer uhmkhay?...umkhay...)
-Basically either you are employed to deter, destract, and or disinform ppl.
..yup takes one to know one...
-Well I guess you all could be the same 10 year old... "momma bought me a nu 'puter"
"think outside the box seth"
...and you know what ..."Parazyte"...LOL
as was said in "Engrish Okey"
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/watercar/
-could someone lend me a dollar? I think I need a new brain.
anyway if your using a text book, your over doing it....I am just 10...by the way are you from OPEC? where you the one hired?...??
Posted by Enrico on Fri Oct 29, 2004 at 01:32 AM
oh yeah for those who have not checked the site already, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/watercar/files/ -this site is definitely in English(Engrish)[giggle]playing aside, play the avi movie coz it's in english (hopefully you could get past his accent, but the babe interviewing him is nice and everything is told here so if your curious please watch the film(carefully).
http://www.wasserauto.de/html/daniel_dingel.html -this is in german, where the video doesnt play it uses an old windows media player 6.4 or something...it builrt in with windows 98SE.
I apologize about the flaming...I reacted before thinking...sorry seth. and the others esp. iceland... :-(
Posted by Enrico on Fri Oct 29, 2004 at 01:53 AM
and everything is told here so if your curious please watch the film(carefully).http://www.wasserauto.de/html/daniel_dingel.html -this is in german, where the video doesnt play it uses an old windows media player 6.4 or something...it builrt in with windows 98SE.
I apologize about the flaming...I reacted before thinking...sorry seth. and the others esp. iceland... :-(
I consider myself a practicing skeptic but try to keep an open mind. Guess that the best way to determine the fib factor regarding the frequency driven H2 generator is to build one. The cost is
low and the fun generated thru expenimenting is high. Perhaps more energy should go into the shop workbench rather than mind blog.
I've looked over several plans and patents for the which address water to H2 conversion. I'm currently in Minnesota but will be back to Texas in a few days. Readers may want to consider the following: Yull Brown (Brown gas), Stanley Meyer (Hi Frequency:Hi Voltage coversion): Sam Leslie Leach (Ultravoilet); Gianni Dotto ( Magnetic flux)
: and finally Archie Blue ( Alternate plate).
See Explore Magazine and Keelynet for all of
above. China does produce Brown Gas Generators for commercial use. Brown gas is a combination of H2, N,O and other gases derived from water and outside air induction.
Posted by Dan Nichols in Texas on Thu Dec 16, 2004 at 02:51 PM
low and the fun generated thru expenimenting is high. Perhaps more energy should go into the shop workbench rather than mind blog.
I've looked over several plans and patents for the which address water to H2 conversion. I'm currently in Minnesota but will be back to Texas in a few days. Readers may want to consider the following: Yull Brown (Brown gas), Stanley Meyer (Hi Frequency:Hi Voltage coversion): Sam Leslie Leach (Ultravoilet); Gianni Dotto ( Magnetic flux)
: and finally Archie Blue ( Alternate plate).
See Explore Magazine and Keelynet for all of
above. China does produce Brown Gas Generators for commercial use. Brown gas is a combination of H2, N,O and other gases derived from water and outside air induction.
Actually this works, but the vibration does not. I have converted my mustang, although I still need to work out some bugs, it runs on 30 amps at 12v DC. I don't use vibration because vibration does not separate the water, only positive and negative charges will pull it apart. You can do this to, take a tuning fork and make it vibrate and put it in water, does very little other than disturb the water. Take 2 peices of copper, connect a 9v battery so one strip of copper is positive and the other negative. Put that in the water (leave about 1/2" apart) and watch it work. I'll need to rebuild the electroleyser and engine because they both suck. But it works. Try it with a lawn mower, what have you got to lose?
Posted by Kuragari in wouldn't you like to know on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 10:31 PM
Fingers?
Posted by Rod in the land of smarties. on Tue Apr 05, 2005 at 10:37 PM
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