It has been brought to my attention that museumofhoaxes.com is on the Google list of sites that engage in Holocaust denial. Upon checking this myself by doing a quick search, indeed your site comes up on page 3, after several other unsavory sites.
While indeed, we at the ADL do believe in the freedom of speech, we also believe that a balance should be struck between free expression and the need to protect the sensiblities of the survivors of this great tragedy.
In the spirit of benevolence toward their memory, I’d like to respectfully ask you to delete any and all threads that combine the words “Holocaust and Hoax”. At last count, a Google search indicated that there are 490 such links on this site alone. Once again, thank you for your consideration.
Of course, reading to see what that link on page three of the Google search had to say would be far too much trouble to bother yourself with, right? Much better to simply complain without knowing what it is that you’re complaining about.
It apparently never occurred to you that the words “Holocaust” and “hoax” could be together in the form of “the Holocaust was not a hoax”, or that it could be a discussion of a hoax relating to the Holocaust but not actually supporting the idea that the Holocaust itself was a hoax (as is the case with the link above). For that matter, since every page here has “Museum of Hoaxes“ and/or “Hoax Forum” on it, then any page that mentions the Holocaust will automatically have “hoax” and “Holocaust” on the same page. You yourself, Abe Foxman, have just created such a page. Before I even commented here, there was the word “hoaxes” at least seven times, the word “hoax” twice, and the word “Holocaust” four times. All that was done by you. So are you going to delete your own page now, or are you going to be hypocritical?
I’m guessing whoever you are you didn’t take a good look at the threads in this forum or you would have seen that the vast majority of us here are debunkers of such theories. I can’t think of any of our regular members who subscribe to it and the nutters that we do get in here are quickly engaged and debated. Saying that we engage in Holocaust denial when a few renegade posters mention it and we try and debunk it is pure nonsense. Before you make such a request I suggest that you take a closer look and actually make sure you know what you are talking about.
Of course, reading to see what that link on page three of the Google search had to say would be far too much trouble to bother yourself with, right? Much better to simply complain without knowing what it is that you’re complaining about.
It apparently never occurred to you that the words “Holocaust” and “hoax” could be together in the form of “the Holocaust was not a hoax”. For that matter, since every page here has “Museum of Hoaxes“ and/or “Hoax Forum” on it, then any page that mentions the Holocaust will automatically have “hoax” and “Holocaust” on the same page. You yourself, Abe Foxman, have just created such a page. So are you going to delete your own page now, or are you going to be hypocritical?
I am aware of your concerns, but I’m sure you don’t want this site to be linked with those other far more unsavory forums. In the age of the internet, any 7th grader can log on, and these denial sites will pop up, giving him or her a distorted view of history. I believe some of the links on your site contribute to that.
As far as linking the words “Holocaust” and “Hoax” you have a valid point, and I will mask the word Holocaust with an ampersand.
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I’m guessing whoever you are you didn’t take a good look at the threads in this forum or you would have seen that the vast majority of us here are debunkers of such theories. I can’t think of any of our regular members who subscribe to it and the nutters that we do get in here are quickly engaged and debated. Saying that we engage in Holocaust denial when a few renegade posters mention it and we try and debunk it is pure nonsense. Before you make such a request I suggest that you take a closer look and actually make sure you know what you are talking about.
Well, you are aware that to even bring the topic up for discussion is in itself an act of denial. Yes, I did read through some of the threads, and the writers here did engage the deniers quite handidly. But to even question the Holoc@ust, and to consider it worthy of debate creates an atmosphere of doubt. The historical record isn’t up for discussion.
Pretending that Holocaust denial doesn’t exist isn’t going to make it go away. This forum didn’t create the denial, it was brought here by other people. So it’s clear enough that even if we pretended it doesn’t exist that it will still be around. And much of the “evidence” against the Holocaust is misidentified or even outright fabricated, which puts it well within the domain of a forum dedicated to exposing hoaxes. While I doubt that most people here would go along with flooding this website with Holocaust denial topics and debates, I don’t feel that having one or two is disrespectful. . .especially as they have so far invariably gone on to show that the evidence against the Holocaust was seriously flawed. If anything, the discussions on here should be enough to make clear to any people who were merely uncertain that the majority of denial claims are utter nonsense.
And the historical record is always up for discussion. But only by means of introducing previously-overlooked facts. Which is why the various Holocaust deniers here have tended to get what they consider rather rough treatment: they don’t really bother with things like facts. Even the accepted history of the Holocaust has at times been found to be not accurate in a few particulars. It is not a beneficial service to history if you do not allow any questioning of events. Simply denying without cause or making up evidence is one thing, but pointing out for consideration where you see that there might be actual errors in the historical record is another matter altogether. So far all of the pro-denial claims here have been of the former type, but there have been plenty of the latter over the years as well. And some of them did turn out to be well-founded.
Abe Foxman - 04 September 2008 05:45 PM
Well, you are aware that to even bring the topic up for discussion is in itself an act of denial.
And that right there is a rather ridiculous statement.
Pretending that Holocaust denial doesn’t exist isn’t going to make it go away.
Yes, I’m quite aware of that, but we can minimize the access to unsavory opinions. Most of the other sites that advocate denial wouldn’t consider this request, and so I am focussing on sites like museumofhoaxes to do their part to mute the people that are disparaging and minimizing the suffering of Jews during World War II.
Accipiter - 04 September 2008 06:09 PM
This forum didn’t create the denial, it was brought here by other people. So it’s clear enough that even if we pretended it doesn’t exist that it will still be around. And much of the “evidence” against the Holocaust is misidentified or even outright fabricated, which puts it well within the domain of a forum dedicated to exposing hoaxes. While I doubt that most people here would go along with flooding this website with Holocaust denial topics and debates, I don’t feel that having one or two is disrespectful. . .especially as they have so far invariably gone on to show that the evidence against the Holocaust was seriously flawed. If anything, the discussions on here should be enough to make clear to any people who were merely uncertain that the majority of denial claims are utter nonsense.
You don’t seem to be getting my point. Bringing up the Holoc@ust as a topic of debate is by itself denial. I realize I may be offending American sensibilities with regards to the First Amendment, but already in Europe, laws are in place that allow criminal prosecution for denying, belittling, ridiculing or questioning the Holocaust.
Accipiter - 04 September 2008 06:09 PM
Even the accepted history of the Holocaust has at times been found to be not accurate in a few particulars.
And this is exactly the point I’m trying to make. There is Holoc@ust denial on this site, and it would be better for everyone involved if the moderators deleted text like that shown above. There is no room for such kind of talk in a civil society.
You don’t seem to be getting my point. Bringing up the Holoc@ust as a topic of debate is by itself denial. I realize I may be offending American sensibilities with regards to the First Amendment, but already in Europe, laws are in place that allow criminal prosecution for denying, belittling, ridiculing or questioning the Holocaust.
Living in Europe for many years myself, I am quite aware of the existence of laws regarding the Holocaust. As far as I know, they are indeed against denying or mocking the Holocaust. I am not aware, however, of any nation in Europe that outright bans questioning details of the Holocaust’s known history so long as it is done in a proper respectable academic fashion. If a historian has found what appears to be actual historical evidence that some accepted bit of Holocaust history turns out to be in error, then he’s perfectly within his rights to announce that so other historians can look into the matter as well. And there is no law that I’m aware of that says that you cannot question or belittle or deny “evidence” against the Holocaust.
Besides which, this is a website managed by an American and (I believe) operated under American laws, not European ones.
Abe Foxman - 04 September 2008 06:30 PM
Accipiter - 04 September 2008 06:09 PM
Even the accepted history of the Holocaust has at times been found to be not accurate in a few particulars.
And this is exactly the point I’m trying to make. There is Holoc@ust denial on this site, and it would be better for everyone involved if the moderators deleted text like that shown above. There is no room for such kind of talk in a civil society.
Denial of history does not necessarily apply only to those who deny the Holocaust, it seems.
An example of where the original historical record of what happened in the Holocaust was found to be in error and was revised: the Soviets initially (around 1947) had it recorded that something like four million Jews were murdered at Auschwitz. When all the dust from WWII finally settled, though, and the records were gathered together and looked at, they realised that they’d overstated for that particular camp that that the real number was somewhere between one and two million. So the original historical record was wrong, and by questioning and researching it was discovered that it was indeed wrong and the correct number was found.
I personally find it very disturbing that you cannot tolerate the notion that the history of the Holocaust could have ever at any point been in error for any amount of time. It seems to show a mental blindness that is no better than that of the Holocaust deniers who are blind to history itself. After all, the history of how the historical view of the Holocaust has been amended is itself part of the history of the Holocaust. You are denying that history. That seems to be very uncharacteristic behaviour.
Abe Foxman - 04 September 2008 06:35 PM
I see this discussion is going no where. I am going to have to contact the site’s ISP and request that they remove the site from the internet.
Good day sir,
Abe Foxman
ADL internet coordinator.
Ah, how nice. Jumping almost immediately to threats and strong-arm tactics. I see that such overzealous methods aren’t limited to the neo-Nazis and their ilk.
Mr. Foxman, I would suggest that if you have further concerns over this matter that you contact Alex. He is the owner and curator of the Museum of Hoaxes. His contact information can be found on the main page of the Museum of Hoaxes. (Hint: There’s a “contact” link at the top.)
As has been already explained to you, there is no information on this site supporting that the Holocaust was a hoax that has not been debunked and shown to be false. For some reason you seem to want to lump this educational, informative and positive material in with various other negative websites. And then you want it removed so there is less material available about how Holocaust denial is false to help people learn and research.
That makes no sense for the cause you seem to be championing.
Be that as it may, no Moderator here is going to be removing any such threads, discussions or posts at your request. If that is to be done it will be done through Alex. I suggest you contact him if you continue to have concerns over this matter. He is the owner of the site and would be the one to make the decision of what material he wants on it and what he does not.
Abe Foxman - 04 September 2008 06:30 PM
Yes, I’m quite aware of that, but we can minimize the access to unsavory opinions. Most of the other sites that advocate denial wouldn’t consider this request…
Abe Foxman - 04 September 2008 06:35 PM
I see this discussion is going no where. I am going to have to contact the site’s ISP and request that they remove the site from the internet.
I see. So instead of having a discussion with those other, unsavory sites to remove their Holocaust denial you are going straight to their ISPs to have them completely removed from the web. Right?
Mr. Foxman, I totally reject your insinuation that by trying to expose hoaxes and duplicity—such as holocaust denial—we at the Museum of Hoaxes are somehow supporting those very things. Some hoaxes, unfortunately, are inspired by hate and bigotry. That doesn’t mean we should never talk about them. Instead, I think it makes it all the more urgent that we openly confront them and expose them for what they are.
Denial of history does not necessarily apply only to those who deny the Holocaust, it seems.
