I never said that gravity was energy.

I am just saying that there are ways to extract energy through areas which are not given enough importance! One of them is Gravity, and the effect of levers. - SeaWasp

You can only extract energy from an object that has been put there in the first place.  It works the same with gravity.  To raise an object against gravity requires energy.  That energy has to come from somewhere outside the device.  If not, then such a device will fail do to friction.  Even if you could create a device completely free of friction, you could never gain more energy from it than was used to start it running.

Geez, DUH, David.  Everyone knows that! 

David B, To Clarify your point. Patent Laws or the idea was first introduced in Medieval Venice, then England as you say. Germany still had no idea about them.

[ Venetian Republic ]
Patents were granted for inventions already in 1443, and the text of the oldest patent law in the world, officially announced as “Inventor Bylaws” was created in 1474.

[ England ]
The text of the patent law, known as “Monopoly Act”, was created and the law was enacted in 1624. This law clearly defined basic concepts which are still influencing interpretation of patents to present day.

[ Germany ]
Germany enacted a comprehensive Patent Law which was based on the principle of mandatory examination, the first such system in the world, in 1877.

Captain Al,
If there were no patents in the 1700s, why would anyone pay Bessler 20,000 pounds? They would have just as much trouble protecting their investment as Bessler had protecting his idea.

That’s why he had an almost impossible task of selling his invention!

Charybdis, This simple graphic explains the idea of extracting energy from levers & gravity!

It was obtained from:

Which gives a much more detailed analysis on the subject.

I am currently working on an idea which utilizes a much more overbalanced system. Still buying parts at moment…

Charybdis - 12 September 2005 04:05 PM

I never said that gravity was energy.

Where exactly is hypothetical ‘overbalancing wheel’ stealing energy from then, so as not to be a perpetual motion machine?

P.S. - Any device which makes use of gravity(?!?) or magnetism to operate is not a perpetual motion device.

Why not? They are not used up by any machine, so their presence is immaterial to whether a machine is perpetual or not.

A perpetual motion device generates it’s own energy.  If the energy comes from outside the frame of the device then what’s the point?  You might as well plug it into an electrical socket.

‘Overbalancing wheel’ isn’t stealing energy from anywhere.  The device as drawn will fail due to friction.

SeaWasp - the diagram you posted is meaningless.  In order to gain energy through gravity you have to expend energy to raise the weights into position.  Even if the machine is designed to do this, energy will be lost on each oscillation due to friction, eventually bringing the machine to a stop.  Solve the friction problem (and miniscule other energy leaks) and you’ll have a machine that will, for all intents and purposes, run forever. 

P.S. I’m aware that such a device will not last forever due to atomic decay, so don’t bother correcting me.

I concur!

Charybdis.. The diagram is a very simple idea which works on the notion that one weight could lift 3 weights if the lever was so balanced! The hard bit is in trying to find a working solution that will perpetuate this effect! Yes the image is meaningless on its own. That’s why I have included the follow up link for more on the issue. If the answer to the riddle was that easy we would’nt be having this discussion right now. It’s not about creating a machine that runs forever. Any machine will eventually wear out & break down! Any person knows that!! The trick is to get a machine which will work without putting extra energy into it. Yes I know. It’s impossible. But that’s what you have been taught to believe. I want to find that out for myself. Trial and error. If I fail, then I will have learned my lesson. If I succeed then I will have taught the world a lesson! I have some ideas, whether they work or not, at least I am giving it a go! That’s how most of our present laws of motion were formed! By trial & experimenting! I do think there is some more work to be done though, regarding the Laws of circular motion & the forces involved. There seems to be quite a bit of debate regarding centripetal & centrifugal forces!

More power to you SeaWasp, just don’t claim to have succeeded and then refuse to let anyone know how it works.  That seems to be a common enough occurance as it is.  If you fail, at least fail honestly.

I have no problems in failing honestly! That’s the best way to learn! I am having fun trying! Cheers!

perpetual motion machine is possible .If you want to see its incomplete 2d drawings pls. visit
http://www.geocities.com/snpssaini/workingpmm.html
http://community.webshot.com/album/379908193gqexka
It is a kind of overbalanced wheel.
I am working on its prototype.
I think it was possible also in 1700.

SeaWasp - 13 September 2005 07:13 AM

David B, To Clarify your point. Patent Laws or the idea was first introduced in Medieval Venice, then England as you say. Germany still had no idea about them.

[ Venetian Republic ]
Patents were granted for inventions already in 1443, and the text of the oldest patent law in the world, officially announced as “Inventor Bylaws” was created in 1474.

[ England ]
The text of the patent law, known as “Monopoly Act”, was created and the law was enacted in 1624. This law clearly defined basic concepts which are still influencing interpretation of patents to present day.

[ Germany ]
Germany enacted a comprehensive Patent Law which was based on the principle of mandatory examination, the first such system in the world, in 1877.

Captain Al,
If there were no patents in the 1700s, why would anyone pay Bessler 20,000 pounds? They would have just as much trouble protecting their investment as Bessler had protecting his idea.

That’s why he had an almost impossible task of selling his invention!

Charybdis, This simple graphic explains the idea of extracting energy from levers & gravity!

It was obtained from:

http://astrosa.8k.com/jan/ 

Which gives a much more detailed analysis on the subject.

I am currently working on an idea which utilizes a much more overbalanced system. Still buying parts at moment…

MY GOD!  YOU’VE INVENTED THE LEVER!  Scientests have been hyopothesizing about it for millenia, but they never thought it was possibe (at least not in our three dimensions).