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Perpetual motion is finally here!
Posted: 14 January 2008 11:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 123 ]
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AB Hammer - 14 January 2008 04:32 PM

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Let

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Posted: 14 January 2008 11:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 124 ]
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David B.

But the energy sector not at all it would seem. Very similar designs to the one shown have been in use in Canada, France and elsewhere since the mid sixties. However, most modern designs dispense with the dam and suspend the turbine (suitably modified) directly in the tidal flow, sort of like an upside down wind turbine.

Speaking of which, most offshore wind turbines are now simply tethered to the sea bed, usually by a trio of vacuum tethers. I

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Posted: 14 January 2008 11:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 125 ]
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AB Hammer - 14 January 2008 04:32 PM

Let

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Posted: 14 January 2008 12:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 126 ]
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AB Hammer - 14 January 2008 04:56 PM

If you knew how much was paid for there mountings, you will see only on an industrial scale would make it to be practible.

Never said it wasn’t. Unlike your gravity machine though, my idea is actually proven to work.

And the first part of your statement has already been covered, patents had been in existence for over 200 years by the time of Bessler, and at that time (in England anyway)

Bessler is almost 300 years. About 60 earlier than any form of patent that could be inforced.

Bessler existed 300 years before the time of Bessler? Did he invent a time machine too?

That type of talk is why Bessler had a it moved to another stand. But we don’t truly know what was said and Bessler just may have had enough for that was the last showing of any of his wheels. When people give up on people, a drastic show of aggravation demonstration is common, as well.

Yes, because while one concealed linkage might have been a possibility, building two would be a feat beyond any man!
rolleyes

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Posted: 14 January 2008 12:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 127 ]
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Of course it could be entered (I assume you meant

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Posted: 14 January 2008 12:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 128 ]
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AB Hammer - 14 January 2008 05:11 PM

What I believe is when we have proven a working wheel, Bessler’s name should be given his correct place in history.

Only if you can prove it is Bessler’s design. Otherwise we would be crediting Deadalus, not the Wright brothers, with the first powered flight; the latter having cleared the name of the former.

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Posted: 14 January 2008 12:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 129 ]
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AB Hammer - 14 January 2008 04:56 PM

That type of talk is why Bessler had a it moved to another stand. But we don’t truly know what was said and Bessler just may have had enough for that was the last showing of any of his wheels. When people give up on people, a drastic show of aggravation demonstration is common, as well.

Here’s the testing that went on for Bessler’s wheel:

First test:  October 1712 in Gera

This involved a wheel that was about 6 feet in diameter and four inches wide.

No record seems to have been made of what the tests were, but the tests were conducted by the Count and Countess of Reuss.

Second test:  October 1715 in Merseberg

This was a test of a different wheel, which was about 11 feet in diameter and 1 foot thick.

The wheel was spun back and forth a number of times.  It was also able to lift a box of bricks on a rope hanging out the window.  The wheel was then moved to a second stand, and was spun back and forth a few more times.

The test was conducted by the Duke of Zeitz, District Magistrate Johann Weise,  Court Counselor Christoph Buchta, and at least ten other “prominent dignitaries”.

Third and final test:  November 1717 to January 1718 in Kassel

This was a test of yet another different wheel, this one about 12 feet in diameter and 18 inches thick.

Prince Karl chose a group of investigators (including Court Architect of the Austrian Emperor Baron Fischer and Professor Willem ‘sGravesande), who spent two days looking at the wheel, moving it from place to place in the room it was kept in, and spinning the wheel back and forth.  The wheel was then set spinning, and was left in a locked room for two weeks.  The investigators then went in and checked on the wheel, which was apparently spinning away.  The wheel was stopped, the people looked at it for a little while, and then they set it spinning and locked the door on it again.  A little over a month later they looked at it again, and it was spinning.

* * * * *

Some problems that I see with the tests:

Note that in each test, it was a completely different wheel that was involved.  No single wheel was ever put to all of the tests.  Nor was the entire wheel ever examined, only the parts of it that Bessler allowed to be examined.  Nor does there seem to have been any records made of any specific measurements of the wheel’s performance; we don’t even know if any measurements were made.  Nor do we know who decided on what tests should be done; if they were all suggested by Bessler, that wouldn’t be very impartial.

The first test in 1712 isn’t really much help to anybody, as we don’t know what was done.  Nor is there any sign that the people conducting the test had any sort of qualifications for doing so.

The second test in 1715 didn’t involve any duration tests.  It was all just short-term stuff, it just proved that that one particular wheel was capable of rotating on its axle and of lifting a weight once, not that it would continue to do either for any length of time.  This is also the test where the wheel was put onto a different stand, but notice how this was done after most of the other tasks.  And again, there’s no sign that anybody doing the test was anybody more than just a court functionary.

The final test involved just short-term spinning back and forth of the wheel under observation.  They didn’t even do the weight-lifting test.  There was an endurance test, but it was done without any observation, nor have I been able to see any sign of any measurements having been taken (such as comparing the wheel’s rotations per minute before and after).

So claiming Bessler’s wheel as support of perpetual motion won’t work.  The best you can say about it is that it doesn’t rule out the possibility.

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Posted: 14 January 2008 03:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 130 ]
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Chronology of Bessler as listed at http://www.orffyre.com


1680-1711

Johann Ernst Elias Bessler is born in or around the village of Zittau, Germany.

Bessler travels extensively and learns many trades. He earns a living crafting and applying medical cures.

Bessler creates his professional name, Orffyre, by transposing the letters in his name using the ‘albam’ method. A similar method is to arrange the alphabet in a circle and transpose opposite letters - B becomes O, E becomes R, etc. Bessler then Latinised Orffyre to Orffyreus, as was fashionable at the time.

Bessler attempts to discover perpetual motion, claiming success after 10 years of study and experiments.

1712-13

First public exhibition is on 6th June 1712 at the inventors home in Gera, Germany.
His machine is a wheel about 6.5 feet diameter and 4 inches thick and it self-rotates at 50 RPM. The wheel is officially tested and certified on 9th October that year.

Bessler offers to sell his secret for the one-off sum of 100,000 Thalers - 20,000 English Pounds.

Gartner begins campaign to discredit Bessler.

Bessler destroys his wheel and moves to Draschwitz.

1714

Bessler’s second wheel is unveiled at the inventors home in Draschwitz, Germany. It is 9.3 feet diameter and 6 inches thick and rotates at 50 RPM. This larger and more powerful wheel is designed to counter critisism that his previous wheel was too small and weak to be of practical value.

Gartner, Borlach and Wagner intensify their campaign to discredit Bessler, publishing a pamphlet that depicts the wheel driven through hollowed-out support posts.

Bessler destroys his wheel and moves to Merseburg.

1715

Third wheel exhibited at the inventors home in Merseburg, Germany. This wheel is 11.15 feet diameter and 11.15 inches thick and rotates at 46 RPM unloaded. This is the first of Bessler’s dual-direction wheels, designed to counter critisism that his machines are somehow wound up with a spring.

Official examination and tests are conducted on 31st October, including a translocation of the wheel to prove the posts are not hollowed-out. Official certificate of approval issued.

Gartner, Borlach and Wagner continue to make accusations of fraud despite inability to explain or replicate Bessler’s demonstrations.

1716

Karl, the Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel, offers to sponsor Bessler and his invention. To receive patronage and protection, Bessler must prove his wheel is genuine by revealing the secret to Karl. In return, Karl agrees to give Bessler 4000 Thalers and promises not to use or disclose the secret until a successful sale is made. After seeing inside the wheel, Karl is convinced and offers Bessler the position of Commercial Councillor with protection, lodgings, income and the means to begin construction of a new, larger wheel.

Bessler moves to Weissenstein Castle, after destroying his wheel at Merseburg.

1717

Bessler’s fourth and largest wheel is built in a room at Weissenstein Castle. It is 12 feet diameter and 18 inches thick and, like his previous wheel at Merseburg, does not require restraint when at rest and accelerates in either direction from a light push start.

Bessler requests a long-duration test, with the wheel sealed and secured under lock and guard. This test runs for 54 days, from 12th November until the 4th January 1718. He also performs a translocation of the wheel to prove there is no hidden axle drive. An official certificate is issued to the inventor confirming the circumstances of the tests and the favourable results.

The wheel is intensely examined, tested and scrutinised by many notable scientists, engineers and officials over the next 4 years.

1721

Karl donates a house to Bessler, with garden and meadow attached, in the nearby town of Karlshafen.

On 17th August, Bessler destroys his wheel at Weissenstein Castle.

Bessler moves himself and his family from Weissenstein Castle to Karlshafen.

There is no information on any further wheels exhibited by Bessler but there is suggestion that he built a smaller uni-direction type wheel in later years.

1727

On 28th November Bessler’s maid, Anne Rosine Mauersbergerin, testifies to authorities that Bessler’s wheels had all been turned manually by Bessler, his wife, his brother Gottfried and herself. She claimed the turning was carried out by a small crank in an adjoining room. She claimed the posts had been hollowed out and contained a long and thin piece of iron with a barb at the bottom which was attached to the shaft journal. The maids accusations were discredited and the charges were dismissed. A long and difficult relationship existed between Mauersbergerin and Bessler and there is suggestion that she did not act alone in her accusations (Gartner). Bessler’s reputation is permenantly damaged.

Bessler destroys all documents, drawings and models that describe and prove his secret, in fear of it being stolen upon his arrest.

1730

On 23rd March Karl, the Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel, dies age 76.

1738

Bessler announces three new inventions: A fountain which leaps continuously from still waters; A large musical organ which plays by itself; An ‘Orffyrean ship’, or special preservation device, designed to save lives and goods at sea in the event of shipwreck.

1745

Bessler is commissioned to design and erect a large windmill project in F

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Posted: 14 January 2008 06:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 131 ]
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AB Hammer - 14 January 2008 08:52 PM

Chronology of Bessler as listed at http://www.orffyre.com

That’s all quite nice, but it doesn’t change anything said previously.  Bessler’s devices are neither supportive nor against the idea of perpetual motion devices.  There’s simply no way of knowing what he did or if it worked.

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Posted: 14 January 2008 06:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 132 ]
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Well, apart from the fact that well attested to laws of physics, like Newton’s for example, argue that it couldn’t have, that purely mathematical proofs like time symmetry demonstrate that conservation of energy holds wherever and whenever the laws and constants of the universe are invariant, and that COE means that an object moving through static fields of force such as magnetism and gravity can do no work over any closed path.

Still, science never quite rules anything out, but “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”. I’m not sure a few dubious eyewitness statements from 3 centuries ago quite cuts it.

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Posted: 14 January 2008 06:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 133 ]
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And I’m still waiting for that evidence the maid lied. So far, you’ve posted a single sentence from a website devoted to Bessler that says she did.

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