LaMa - 28 September 2005 04:49 PM

Charybdis - 28 September 2005 04:40 PM

This is not a lesson that is to be taught by the school.  If your university told you it was your ‘lesson’ to clean all the toilets one week would you have done it?

If this was because someone out of the group of students I was part of had deliberately shit in the classroom, I would not be happy to carry out the task, but I would find it acceptable as such.

...Simply because defecating in a classroom to taunt a teacher is so gross, that it justifies the setting of a stern example in my view. Sorry then if this also is tough on people who were “only” onlookers, but they won’t die of it.

And mind you, since they stood by but didn’t interfere in this gross defacation act, they probably are not that innocent. And now they learned that such extremely gross things just cannot be tolerated and lead to harsh measures. They won’t forget it.

It in fact is similar to the case where onlookers of a rape are prosecuted. They didn’t rape, but they are not innocent.

That’s the whole point. That class learned that there are certain things, that go way too far and are not normal. And this will lead to unpleasant countermeasures.

The teacher won;t die for it either…

Also, in a classroom it’s unlikely that all the children saw whoever defacated, so they are being unfairly punished.

And personally, if I saw someone halfway through a shit in the back of a classroom, I don’t think I’d go up to ‘em either. Fine I’d warn ‘em not to beforehand, but wouldn’t get involved if he/she is actually doing it. If they are that intent on doing it, they’ll do it.

LaMa - 28 September 2005 04:07 PM

Also, I think it is rather American to cry out if little WASP kids have to clean fecal matter, while all would probably find it perfectly appropriate if an Hispanic janitor would have to do it.

hmmm, I am American but for some reason I would sympathize with the janitor forced to clean (be he Irish/Croatian/Mexican/Puerto Rican/African/ or god for forbid even a Dane!)

and while I dont see the fairness in making kids who did not commit the act, clean up shit, I would surely take pleasure in watching the little cretin (be he Irish/Croatian/Mexican/Puerto Rican/African/ or god for forbid even a Dane!) who perpetrated the crime clean up the mess.

I must be an anomaly

Cleaners sign up to clear up stuff like this when they become cleaners. ESPECIALLY at a school. My head cleaner gets paid well for it, he gets a house which he doesn’t have to pay for (and money). Anyway, they are getting paid for clearing it up. yes, it would teach the kid a lesson, but they don’t know who did it so let the cleaners do their jobs. By the way LaMa, i believe all our cleaners are English so it has nothing to do with race.

If you sign up to be a janitor in a school you are NOT committing yourself cleaning up after some little arsehole that takes to shitting in a classroom as a prank. This is appalling behaviour. Someone among these kids must have known who had done it, they chose to protect the perpetrator and were punished. I still agree with LaMa on this point. I teach myself, I also remember very well what it was like to be 10. At that age you have a well formed idea of right and wrong which should include knowing that defecating in your schoolroom is seriously out of order. As in every case such as this I would point the finger at the parents. If their children have not learned at that stage in life that you cannot create messes and expect others to clean them up - then shame on them. If they choose to attack someone who was forced to teach their children this important lesson- shame on them. In a classroom situation a teacher is sometimes forced to punish a group of students rather than a single guilty party. Leaving a serious act of blatant disregard for others go unpunished would be as, if not more damaging then having these kids clean up after themselves. It is a harsh lesson, but by the sounds of the parents reactions, it is one that needed to be learnt somehow because they were not going to get it at home.

I understood the article to mean that there was a bathroom inside the class room.  When I was in the 4th grade my class shared an interior wall with another classroom, and at the point where the 2 rooms met, there was an open “doorway”.  In this doorway, were 2 restrooms.  One for boys, one for girls.  About 40-50 kids shared 2 bathroom stalls with our teachers.  Any child could have gone at any time and caused a mess.

Now, at 10, if I had some sort of accident that caused me to miss the toilet, or cause some other sort of mess, I might have been terribly embarrassed.  If, after I had done this, a teacher (a sub at that, a virtual stranger) started pointing out the mess to EVERYONE, I certainly wouldn’t have jumped forward to volunteer that I couldn’t control my bowels.  And to 10 year olds, poop is funny.  Anything that happens in the bathroom is funny to them.  So kids making fun isn’t that big of a deal.  The teacher overreacted by making students that WERE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE MESS clean it up.

I only had white janitors in my school when I was growing up, btw.  They were getting PAID to clean up shit.  My “job” at 10, was to go to school and learn.  Not clean up after people.

Technically the kids that cleaned up the mess didn’t lear any lessons…except not to make jokes.

It was unclear who had defecated or whether it was done purposely.

The sub was probably trying to make a point of “I’m your teacher dammit, and I’m in charge, and I’m gonna show YOU.”