Accipiter—you’re wearing me out, but I applaud your tenacity
by stuffing an excessive amount of explosives in the right places —why would one do this when the fire department could’ve easily put these fires out?
Does it really make sense to you to destroy a building because 2 floors had small fires?
Watch Loose Change—there is a nice shot of the collapse in real time.
That would be helpful if I actually had “Loose Change”, whatever it may be. Could it be one of the videos listed on this page that you used to base your times on? —Google loose change—grab some popcorn and watch—you will find every assertation supported somewhere else with a few exceptions—if you don’t have time to watch it all (I would highly recommend it),then wait till it completely loads and then scroll forward to the building collapses
For one thing, the buildings were old, and the steel would have gone through decades of stress since it was tested. Also, what “steel” are you referring to? The beams, or the rivets and bolts? —-Once again, here you are talking about a physical impossibility —let’s say that the rivets and bolts gave way, let’s say the floors gave way, let’s say that the columns pulled in—having conceded all of that—you again come to resistance—let’s say the buildings took 20 seconds to fall(which they clearly did not)—this would mean that every floor fell, impacted the floor beneath it, pulverized it to dust—each floor in 1/4 of a second
I will try to answer your other questions later—gotta go
How a murder is committed does not change the fact that it was. Thousand of people died. That’s the bottom line. How it was accomplished is of little solace to those victims left behind and whose dreaming nights and days will forever be violated by imagined images.
As far as I’m concerned, that means that these towers are still falling and will continue to fall…....
I find the official explanation ridiculous and the evidence of controlled demolition compelling, as do tens of millions of other Americans, and hundreds of millions around the world. Watching video and looking at the pictures is all it takes for many to realize same. However, there are hundreds of other problems, contradictions, red flags, outright lies and holes. What about these:
If government insiders were convicted by a jury of involvement in 9/11, how many here would believe it? How many here support the exposure of “conspiracy theories” as bunk? If you do, then support the National 9/11 Debate being sponsored by http://www.teamliberty.net/id244.html
Contact the Commission and NIST and demand they defend their account in public debate- or indemnify the American People against future rulings/judgments that they’ve covered up what really happened on 9/11.
Contact info here: http://www.teamliberty.net/id266.html
let’s say that the rivets and bolts gave way, let’s say the floors gave way, let’s say that the columns pulled in—having conceded all of that—you again come to resistance—let’s say the buildings took 20 seconds to fall(which they clearly did not)—this would mean that every floor fell, impacted the floor beneath it, pulverized it to dust—each floor in 1/4 of a second
As has already been pointed out, the freefall time of a structure 400 metres high is roughly 9 seconds. The approximate fall time of the WTC was around 10 (an accurate time isn’t possible as the base of the structure was completely obscured by the time the top reached that point); the difference of a second or two is likely the result of inelastic collisions between the floors. The floor design of the WTC was directed to light, distributed loads, the dynamic resistance of the floor supports to the falling mass would have been very small.
by stuffing an excessive amount of explosives in the right places —why would one do this when the fire department could’ve easily put these fires out?
Does it really make sense to you to destroy a building because 2 floors had small fires?
Once again: “I remember getting a call from the, er, fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, ‘We’ve had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it.‘ And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse.“ You yourself used that quotation to support your theory earlier on. You were willing enough to accept what it said when you thought it lent weight to your argument. Are you going to argue against it, now that it shows that they thought there was reason to knock down the building?
Watch Loose Change—there is a nice shot of the collapse in real time.
That would be helpful if I actually had “Loose Change”, whatever it may be. Could it be one of the videos listed on this page that you used to base your times on? —Google loose change—grab some popcorn and watch—you will find every assertation supported somewhere else with a few exceptions—if you don’t have time to watch it all (I would highly recommend it),then wait till it completely loads and then scroll forward to the building collapses
I’m not going to spend several days downloading a 200 Mb video, and I’m certainly not going to pay for the DVD. However, I have seen many, many video clips of the buildings falling, and as I’ve said, none of them could have given an exact time frame for the fall of the buildings. You said that you timed the fall yourself; why can’t you provide us with a link to that one particular video clip that shows the same images you used for that timing? All of the video clips are out there individually on the Internet. I already provided you with a page that lists many of them. Why don’t you show us which one it was that you timed?
For one thing, the buildings were old, and the steel would have gone through decades of stress since it was tested. Also, what “steel” are you referring to? The beams, or the rivets and bolts? —-Once again, here you are talking about a physical impossibility —let’s say that the rivets and bolts gave way, let’s say the floors gave way, let’s say that the columns pulled in—having conceded all of that—you again come to resistance—let’s say the buildings took 20 seconds to fall(which they clearly did not)—this would mean that every floor fell, impacted the floor beneath it, pulverized it to dust—each floor in 1/4 of a second
So in other words, you’re saying that there was either a giant vacuum apparatus that sucked the buildings down, or else that some sort of force-field pushed down on the buildings and made them fall faster. Because whether it was explosives planted to knock out some of the supports, or whether it was fire that weakened the supports, the building would have fallen in the same amount of time. But you insist that it fell faster than that. You’re still not addressing that basic contradiction in your theory.
Do controlled demo collapses fall at exactly free fall speed? I haven’t looked into that, but I would think they probably fall slightly slower- timing the explosives to cut all supports out at exactly the right moment to not impede a complete free fall seems like it would be incredibly and unneccessarily hard. The fact that these buildings fell anywhere close to free fall speed is a red flag. So is the fact that the concrete in the towers was pulverized into a rapidly inflating cloud of dust; my experience dropping concrete from buildings and my intuition tell me that concrete and steel structures falling on same don’t quickly inflate into a dust cloud; it’d be more like a car wreck; the concrete and steel would break, shatter- but not explode into a dust cloud.
Again, the controlled demo evidence is just one of the many red flags;
Decades of warnings and preparations for planes as missiles that were lied about.
Standard Operating Protocol for air defense grossly violated 4 times; War games, at least one mimicking the exact 9/11 attacks; more lies from the Bush Administration/DoD- FAA is gagged
Insider trading
$100,000 wired to Atta by ISI Chief Ahmed, who was in DC meeting w/ the NSC the week of 9/11
Al Qaeda is a CIA creation- cooperativeresearch has much mainstream documentation of a continued relationship w/ them, Bin Laden, the Taliban, ISI. British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook died mysteriously shortly after he said Al Qaeda is basically the “database” of terrorist contacts the CIA uses for trafficking in drugs/arms
Whatever hit the Pentagon, it wasn’t Hani Hanjour flying- all his instructors said he couldn’t fly a Cessna
Why didn’t the anti-missle batteries at the White House and Pentagon take out “flight 77”? How can they expect us to believe they couldn’t track it on radar, when they have systems that can track multiple incoming ballistic missiles?
World history of falsified attacks and threats used by US govt and many govts in history as pretexts for imperialist conquests and suppressing dissent
If government insiders were convicted by a jury of involvement in 9/11, how many here would believe it? How many here support the exposure of “conspiracy theories” as bunk? If you do, then support the National 9/11 Debate being sponsored by http://www.teamliberty.net/id244.html
Contact the Commission and NIST and demand they defend their account in public debate- or indemnify the American People against future rulings/judgments that they’ve covered up what really happened on 9/11.
Contact info here: http://www.teamliberty.net/id266.html
But first, in response to your very valid questions and concerns- search skyscraper fires; there have been a number of fires. . .
Why do you constantly insist on trying to compare things that don’t compare? The Windsor Building was not one of the World Trade Center buildings. It wasn’t even built of the same materials. The fire was of a completely differnent type. The same goes with all the other building fires that keep getting compared to the WTC fires. What happened to those two towers in New York was completely unique in history. Those particular combinations of events and objects had never before occurred. There is no comparison. Just because another event involved a building and a fire, that does not make it the same. I might as well say that humans can’t actually live on land, because jellyfish are also made of the similar basic substances as humans are yet die quickly when washed ashore.
The building’s designer expressed surprise at their collapse.
What, do you expect him to say, “Yup, I always thought that would happen!“?
Experienced people who expressed dissent have been paid off and intmidated. . .
That’s just your opinion of what happened in a few examples. Why couldn’t Van Romero change his mind, and were’s the evidence showing that his budget was any sort of a bribe? Why was Kevin Ryan fired? Plenty of experienced people who expressed dissent are still expressing dissent quite loudly, as are many inexperienced people, and haven’t had any problems. You can also probably find plenty of people who support the government’s findings and have ended up losing jobs or funding.
The government’s own reports conclude the plane damage did not contribute significantly to the collapse- they don’t claim the planes took out a lot of columns- the buildings were shredding the planes at the same time;
“Didn’t contribute significantly” doesn’t mean “didn’t contribute”. Besides which, I thought you were saying that the government’s own reports were flawed, erroneous, deceptive, and full of lies?
it is blamed on fires aided by the knocking off of insulation by the plane crash.
So the airplane crash did contribute, and did what an ordinary fire (such as all the ones in all those other buildings around the world that you’ve been bringing up) wouldn’t have been able to. . .
They also say most of the jet fuel burned off quickly, but started fires of paper, desks, carpet etc.
The reports say that most of the aerosol fuel burned off quickly, while the liquid puddles took several minutes at least. And then there’s the burning of all the material that was part of the building and offices.
The fires were not so severe that surivivors couldn’t walk to the edge of the crashed floors- there are pictures.
All that means is that those people weren’t in the middle of the fire. It doesn’t mean that there were no fires inside the building.
Firemen are on tape reaching the area and saying the fires were containable.
What firemen, what tapes, and what fires in what buildings?
Molten steel was found in the basements of all 3 towers.
I actually haven’t ever seen any evidence of that. One man said that he saw pools of liquid metal, and that seems to be where most of the reports of that come from. There were plenty of people who saw twisted steel beams and refered to them as “molten”, but of course there’s a great distance between metal being softened or twisted and metal being melted (liquified).
The S tower was hit second, yet collapsed first;
Which doesn’t really mean anything more than that it fell first. It’s not like a fire caused by a crashing jet would be a controlled event, identical in every instance.
all floors were engineered to hold 5 times their load-
First, just because something is designed to do something doesn’t necessarily mean that it will do it. Do you think that the Tacoma Narrows Bridge was designed to whip around like a dying snake, or that the St. Francis Dam near LA was designed to burst and drown 500 people?
Secondly, that holding five times their load counts on the support structures being intact and undamaged.
Third, there was more than five times the weight of a single floor pushing down.
it doesn’t matter that there was more building on top because the plane hit lower.
I’m not quite sure what you’re trying to say here.
No one has ever suggested the buildings were getting unsafe because of their age, but people were talking about the need to get rid of those buildings because they were obsolete, and the cost involved would’ve been huge because of the asbestos.
Are you trying to say that the buildings were knocked down to save money? Because a whole lot more money was spent dealing with the crashes and collapses than would have been involved in simply demolishing the buildings.
All tests by scientists with models have failed to duplicate the results; they haven’t tried controlled demolition.
And how do you know this? Besides, no scientist could know everything that happened inside the buildings, so any model would be incomplete.
The Bush Administration ordered the EPA to declare the air safe 3 days later; now, thousands more will die as a direct result. A federal judge recently refused to dismiss a lawsuit against the EPA and had very harsh words for them.
Okay, so they have a lot of pictures of the buildings falling down. Nobody disputes (at least, nobody here so far!) that they fell. Where are the pictures of the explosives being placed or in place already, or of the pools of molten metal, or of secretive government operatives at work, or any of that?
What the hell are they putting in the air in Texas? How do they find US? We are a simple village of intellectuals, but they find us dammit, they find us! They find us with their damned conpirational
1 entry found for conspirational.
con·spi·ra·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (knsp-rshn)
n.
The act or an instance of conspiring.
A joint effort directed toward a goal.
hacked satelites
1 entry found for satellites.
sat·el·lite ( P ) Pronunciation Key (stl-t)
n.
Astronomy. A celestial body that orbits a planet; a moon.
Aerospace. An object launched to orbit Earth or another celestial body.
One who attends a powerful dignitary; a minion. A subservient follower; a sycophant.
A nation dominated politically and economically by another nation.
An urban or suburban community located near a big city.
Genetics. A short segment of a chromosome separated from the rest by a constriction, typically associated with the formation of a nucleolus.
Microbiology. A colony of microorganisms whose growth in culture medium is enhanced by certain substances produced by another colony in its proximity.
from Austin Texas. I did MUCH research, and I have uncovered a governement conspiracy involving those poor citizens. Codename: Austin Systemic Scourge With Intent to Poison Everyone
There is substantial evidence that the unsuspecting citizens of the city of Austin Texas have had their bodies and minds POISONED by the government through systematic release of ozone (over decades) into the air (via hacked satellites). I have the unrefutable proof:
The federal government has set certain standards for air quality, including acceptable and unacceptable ozone levels. Unfortunately, Austin is frequently at risk for exceeding the federal standards and having too much ground-level ozone during certain times of the year.
Colourless gas at low concentrations, which becomes blue as the concentration increases. ................ DANGEROUSLY REACTIVE. Unstable at room temperature ............ May decompose violently…........... Can react violently ............ VERY TOXIC. ...........effects may be delayed. POSSIBLE MUTAGEN - May cause genetic damage.....
This is what it does to you people. Genetic paranoia….. you name it. You can’t argue with facts, and I have presented them with all the proper research. I know how to google, therefore my research is impeccable.
3 entries found for impeccable.
im·pec·ca·ble ( P ) Pronunciation Key (m-pk-bl)
adj.
Having no flaws; perfect. See Synonyms at perfect.
Incapable of sin or wrongdoing.
Damn! Same speech, another forum. And I thought we were special.
But it’s all part of the government plot. Genetic mutation of the memory. This guy forgot that he wrote the exact same thing somewhere else, however, he was able to recreate his thoughts and put them down in writing word for word. This ability will come in handy in the New World Order. But because of the genetic memory mutation, he does not know that he is a pawn.
45% of Americans in the latest Zogby poll* believe that there should be a new investigation of 911. 43% believe the government facilitated the attack. The release of this bogus tape is clearly a ploy to scare and obfuscate. My fellow Newshounds and trolls, please spend just a few minutes and take the following test.
The Nordsman Test—A Real ‘Patriot Act’
(Prove the Government account of 911 and win $1,000,000)
Answer these three questions of the 911 Commission Report. If you are unable to scientifically answer even one question, you must, as an intellectual and more importantly, as a patriot, question the official explanation of the terrorist attack of September 11, 2001.
A ball dropped from the top of the WTC would fall at free fall speed. ...............Question 1: Based on the pancake theory, each floor would naturally have encountered resistance from the floor beneath it. Where did the resistance go?
Larry Silverstein, owner of the WTC complex, admitted in a PBS documentary, that in consultation with a ‘fire captain’ on September 11, 2001, the decision was made to ‘pull’ WTC Building 7. ‘.............Question 2: Since it is literally impossible to wire a building to implode in less than eight hours (the time from the first collapsed tower to the time WTC 7 collapsed) and since nobody has even admitted to wiring the building to implode on September 11, 2001; how did WTC Building 7 collapse into it’s own footprint at free fall speed? Hint. You will not find this explained in the 911 Commission Report.
The WTC towers were a marvel of engineering. There were 47 steel re-enforced columns that formed the core of each building. ..................
Question 3. Part 1: How did a fire that at maximum, reached 1800 degrees for a very short period of time, sever 47 steel re-enforced columns, at exactly the same time, causing the symmetrical collapse of the towers?
Part 2: What caused the steel columns to sever at every single floor facilitating the collapse? In other words, if the columns were severed due to jet fuel at the impact site of the planes, then after the pancaking of the floors, there should have been the remains of the 47 columns, which were never exposed to fire.
If you cannot answer all three of these questions using science and logic, ............Jimmy Walters is offering $1,000,000 to anyone who can prove that the trade centers came down without explosives. Please see the following link. http://www.reopen911.org/Contest.
* Step into the future
The Internet is the fastest growing communications medium in the history of the world. Since the mid-1990s, Zogby International has utilized the Internet as a means of providing the public with instant access to the day’s best public opinion research.
As the Internet continues to revolutionize the way we communicate, it is certain that the computer will gradually replace the telephone as the most efficient vehicle for survey research. Zogby International has assumed a leading role in pioneering cyberspace for the science of polling, and we need your help.
Zogby International’s “Zogby Interactive,“ is the Internet and Interactive extension of the famous Zogby International organization, is excited to provide you this opportunity and outlet to express your own unique views, hopes and opinions on an array of topics.
Please take a moment to fill out our online registration form.
Register Today!
Zogby Wants You!
So if I’m understanding this correctly, these folks are not polling a ramdom sampling of the population, but internet surfers who happen upon their site and register?
The posters here are special. You are fellow Americans and I posted here specifically because the posters here are skeptics. I like skeptics, especially intelligent skeptics. I believed the official tail until recently. I was told independently by 2 separate people who I respect intellectually. I still didn’t take it to heart. Then I saw Loose Change and I got sick to my stomach. I went further and checked out 911truth.org and 911proof.com and st911.org. No one has ever called me a conspiracy theorist until recently, when I’ve tried to inform people of the facts. I developed my test in an attempt to reach people. I realize the truth behind 911 is difficult to handle and very much world shattering, however, it is the truth. The difference between a skeptic and an ideologue is the ability to absorb information that may threaten your world view. Believe it or not, conspiracies do exist. For those of you who are interested in the truth and not a justification to believe what you want to believe, I highly recommend looking at the 40 questions of 911 link posted earlier. If you’re like Accipiter, you will find some sort of answer for them all, be it valid or not, and then I’m sure you’ll sleep fine after that. I do not mean this disrespectfully, but if you can actually look at the wealth of evidence and see absolutely no reason to question the official tail, there isn’t anymore that can be said to you. Unlike the nasty, insulting comments that those of us who have awakened have to constantly absorb, I do not resent you for your belief in the myth and your denial that there is in reality a different story. I do hope, that as skeptics, you will question your own beliefs and truths on occasion. For those interested the link to the $1,000,000 reward for proving the government story is http://www.reopen911.org/Contest.htm
