oppiejoe - 07 January 2013 11:33 PM

Peter - 06 January 2013 09:53 PM

@opijoe discussion on the
Can you give us statistics on whether or not the use of a firearm instead of other instruments in a crime would have no impact on the severity of injuries or on the number of deaths? I can’t believe attacking people with a knife would generally cause the same amount of injury and death compared to the same person being armed with an assault rifle.

Good points and excellent discussion on your observations Gray - no disagreement from me.

Peter…. I am no expert by any stretch of the imagination… just exploring both sides of the discussion (with a heavier emphasis on the “support” aspect of firearm owners since I am one).

The stats I got from Wiki showed rampage killers using tools like knives, swords, machete, club, etc.

Frederick Moses McCallum, 19, Jan. 30, 1969 Buffalo Narrows, SK Canada killed 7 wounded 1 by melee weapon
Wirjo, 42:  April 15, 1987 Banjarsari,  Indonesia 20 killed 12 injured by melee weapon
Maksim Kiselev 27,  Feb. 26, 2008 Orton, Russia killed 6 wounded ? by melee weapon
Damian Karlik/Kirilik 38,  Oct. 17, 2009 Rishon LeZion, Israel killed 6 wounded 0 by melee weapon
Arsenio Formentera,  Jan. 28 1968 Palompon Philippines killed 17 wounded ? by melee weapon
Domingo Salazar 42, Oct. 11 1956 San Nicolas Philippines Killed 16 wounded 1 by melee weapon
David Malcolm Gray 33, Nov. 13/14 1990 Aramoana New Zealand Killed 13 wounded 3 by melee weapon
Bai Ningyang, 18, May 8, 2006 Shiguan China 12 killed and 5 wounded by melee weapon and arson
Wu Huanming, May 12, 2010 Linchang, China 9 Killed 11 wounded by melee weapon
Kiichiro Nakamura 36,  Sep. 7, 1954 Toyotsu, Japan 8 killed 3 wounded by melee weapon

...and these were just a few of the ones listed. There were quite a few more listing firearms since that particular tool is VERY efficient at killing and injuring.

 

I don’t see a link to the source of the above statistics. I guess I’d have to say it is a meaningless list in that it isn’t contrasted with figures for deaths from firearms.

oppiejoe - 07 January 2013 11:33 PM

I found a chart in the Bureau of Justice that shows a weapons comparison by type for 1976-2005 (U.S.)

That one seems interesting.

oppiejoe - 07 January 2013 11:33 PM

and this breakdown:

Obviously this is reflects the U.S. proliferation and availability of firearms.

The above one seems interesting. (Sorry for being “repetitive”. Statistics wasn’t my favourite subject at university)

oppiejoe - 07 January 2013 11:33 PM

For a more worldwide report (I find it interesting that North America does NOT lead this list.):

Close enough to the top of the list to be significant.

oppiejoe - 07 January 2013 11:33 PM

And probably these stats are most responsive to your post:

 

I find these graphs to be misleading. They treat both “Homicides by other means” and “Homicides by firearms” as homogenous sets of data. I could easily argue that only “Homicides by fireams” is homogenous while “Homicides by other means” represents the sum total of various other means of homicides (and therefore not homogenous).

oppiejoe - 07 January 2013 11:33 PM

As I said earlier: dead is dead regardless of the tool… and people will use whatever tool is available…

Telling stats in support of this theory:

Percentages of what figures? These pie charts can be seen as misleading depending on which variables have been accounted for. Which page did these pie charts come from?

oppiejoe - 07 January 2013 11:33 PM

source document: Linky (LARGE PDF)

I’ll try reading this pdf document when I have more time.

Peter: Pie charts @ bottom are on page 42 of 128 and relate to Homicide mechanism, the Americas and Europe (2008 or latest available year) referenced in the section : FIREARMS, TRAFFICKING AND ORGANIZED CRIME under Use of weapons in homicide.

The impact of firearm availability on homicide,
the interconnections between the use of firearms to
commit homicide and the perpetration of violence
by “gangs” and organized criminal groups are often
studied separately. In this chapter they are brought
together with a view to highlighting cross-national
and subregional connections between levels of violence,
firearms and the links between violence,
organized crime and the illicit markets in drugs.
The latter is explored here in depth with particular
reference to the situation in Central America.

Use of weapons in homicide
Not all homicides involve a weapon. The international
classification of disease coding system (ICD-
10), for example, in its category of death by assault
(X85-Y09) includes only 6 codes out of 25 that
may commonly be thought of as weapons (handgun,
rifle/shotgun/large firearm, unspecified firearm,
explosive material, sharp object and blunt
object). Despite that and the wide range of possible
“non-weapon’’ causes of death by assault recognized
by international classifications,¹ available
data suggest that weapons – particularly firearms
– play a very significant role in homicide.

Calculations from UNODC homicide statistics
based on 108 countries (covering just over 50 per
cent of the world’s homicides) suggest that around
199,000 homicides of the estimated 468,000 total
homicides were committed in 2010 by firearm,
representing a share of 42 per cent.,²

Like homicide itself, the use of firearms in homicide
is not equally distributed around the world.
Data based on criminal justice and public health
sources provide different breakdowns of homicide
mechanism committed in different regions. Using
public health sources, it can be estimated that 74
per cent of homicides are committed by firearm in
the Americas (based on 30 countries), as compared
to 21 per cent in Europe (based on 32 countries).
In contrast, sharp objects such as knives account
for a greater proportion of violent deaths in European
countries (36 per cent) than the Americas (16
per cent), while the use of any weapon accounts
for 90 per cent of homicides in the Americas but
for only 57 per cent of homicides in Europe (figure
3.1).
As discussed in this and chapter 5, this pattern is
likely to be closely tied to the different distribution
of homicide typologies in the Americas and
Europe; a larger proportion of homicides in the
Americas being linked to organized crime and
gangs as compared to a large proportion of homicides
in Europe being linked to intimate partner/
family-related causes. In particular, the 43 per cent
of homicides linked to “other” mechanisms in
Europe is largely reflective of assault by bodily
force, blunt objects and strangulation, which are
often seen in intimate partner or family-related
homicide.,³

As you can see…. It it quite verbose and takes a LOT of time to read and interpret…. for me to explain would take equal amounts of time… but you get the general idea: LOTS of FIREARMS then lots more firearm related homocides - less firearms then less firearm related homocides BUT there is still going to be homocides happening REGARDLESS of whether the tool is firearm or club or poison or explosive or bare hands. I felt the circles made it clear that the “pie” gets filled out regardless of the method. With regard to the wiki answer at the top where you didn’t know the source - just giving examples of crimes where mass murder took place without a firearm - they can be contrasted in wiki with crimes that were commited with a firearm - it is amazing to me that someone can take multiple lives with a club or an axe… but they do it

1 The other “non-weapon” ICD-10 codes for death by assault
include assault by drugs, medicaments, biological substances,
corrosive substances, pesticides, gases and vapours, chemicals,
drowning and submersion, smoke, fire and flames, steam,
hot vapours and hot objects, pushing from a high place,
pushing before a moving object, bodily force, deliberately
hitting or running over with a motor vehicle, and by neglect
or abandonment. Source: WHO, International Classification
of Diseases (ICD-10) (2007).
2 Based on country data related to 2010 or latest available
year, this estimate, based largely on criminal justice data,
falls within the range of 196,000 to 229,000, previously
estimated and published as the global burden of non-conflict
-related firearm mortality from WHO public health sources.
Source: Richmond, T.S., Cheney, R., Schwab, C.W, The
global burden of non-conflict-related firearm mortality, Injury
Prevention (2005).
3 Aldridge M. and Browne, K.D., Perpetrators of Spousal Homicide,
Trauma Violence Abuse (2003).[/quote]

I think we can rectify everything by scanning everyone for this other thing being discussed:
Biblical Mark on the Forehead?