gray - 23 December 2012 09:59 AM

A mechanic can’t work without tools.  Reduce the number of guns available and fewer nutcases will have access to them.

Yes.

I would think what’s also needed are mandatory background checks for both new and second hand firearms. As well a limiting of military assault rifles to those with a genuine need (if not a complete ban on them). National uniform gun law would also be good.

Yeah.. problem being, the Newton shooter had stolen his guns from his mother. While such a ban might have kept the rifle out of his hands, he still would have had the two pistols. The New York firefighter-shooter had stolen his guns, as well. I’m all for keeping military hardware out of civillian hands, but it’s a mistake to think that any number of background checks will stop Joe Crazyperson (of the Southampton Crazypersons) from simply stealing the gun he’s not able to get legally…

Criminals don’t play by the rules. Otherwise we would call them lawyers.

Robin Bobcat - 28 December 2012 03:54 AM

Yeah.. problem being, the Newton shooter had stolen his guns from his mother. While such a ban might have kept the rifle out of his hands, he still would have had the two pistols. The New York firefighter-shooter had stolen his guns, as well. I’m all for keeping military hardware out of civillian hands, but it’s a mistake to think that any number of background checks will stop Joe Crazyperson (of the Southampton Crazypersons) from simply stealing the gun he’s not able to get legally…

Criminals don’t play by the rules. Otherwise we would call them lawyers.

If you have a free for all with guns being available to everybody then it has to follow gun related violence will be higher than it otherwise would be. The analogy of criminals not playing by the rules is something I am getting sick of hearing. The free availability of guns is an enabling factor for more people to become criminals or at least to engage in more violent criminal acts.

If you want to be technical I would rather have the Newton shooter be limited to pistols instead of having a rifle as well. Unless I’m mistaken pistols have much less of a range than rifles do.

I’m not naive enough to think that laws will prevent some people from stealing guns. But I do believe the overall numbers of deaths and injuries would be reduced if national gun laws were put in place. Crazyperson’s would have less opportunities to use guns if they weren’t so freely available.

Criminals don’t play by the rules. Otherwise we would call them lawyers.

Lawyers don’t exactly play by the rules either, they are just more skilled at bending, breaking or recoloring the rules which, by the way, takes a bit of time to do so there is more time to get out of the way.

I think we can all agree though, as Peter stated, that pistols have a shorter range than rifles, which have a shorter range than canons.  I think we can also agree that most ‘slaughters’ have been carried out by zealots and the mentally unstable and insane than by ordinary criminals.  Criminals want or covet some ‘thing’ we can all identify as motive.  They are not interested in making a statement by killing or slaughtering as much as by getting the ‘thing’ or ‘things’ and getting away.

Since guns are defined as tools, then it’s best to limit both the size and capability of the tool.

Devils advocate:

Even those who should be aware of the danger of firearms in the home are sometimes negligent…
12/17/2012 in Oklahoma

A 3-year-old boy who accidentally shot and killed himself with a gun has been identified as the nephew of a state trooper — and the weapon belonged to the lawman — authorities said.

Ryder Rozier, 3, died of an accidental gunshot wound to the head, said Amy Elliott, spokeswoman for the state medical examiner’s office.
The boy was at the home of an Oklahoma Highway Patrol trooper on Saturday when the accidental shooting took place, Logan County sheriff’s Capt. Richard Stephens said.
Rozier is a nephew of the trooper, Stephens said. The boy shot himself with one of the trooper’s personal guns, Stephens said. It was not a state-issued gun.
Ryder was at his uncle’s home in the 1500 block of Derby Lane, about four miles southeast of Guthrie. He found a loaded handgun in a bedroom, Stephens said.
Records show the home belongs to trooper Ian Rozier, 37. Ian Rozier graduated from the 52nd Oklahoma Highway Patrol Academy in 2000, said trooper Betsy Randolph, a spokeswoman for the patrol.

Linky

P.S. This is only one of over 100 people who have died by firearms since Sandy Hook
/Devils advocate:
P.P.S. My firearms still haven’t harmed anyone in that same time

Continue the debate…

My gosh that’s a hideous story.  There are so many things that kill or can kill and maim though.  Parents try to kid-proof their homes and even I try to parrot-proof areas where FuzzyButt spends time.  There is never a guarantee though that you’ve thought of everything. 

Many years ago a now x had a thing not just about guns but about knives and razor blades so I got rid of all of these and that included even kitchen ware knives and finally got smart enough and brave enough to just leave. 

The point is that we all try to be careful about things that are dangerous including rat poisons, insect spray, bleach, kerosene and gasoline that is stored and MANY items we use on a daily basis with such abandon that we don’t recognize their danger.  Accidents happen to all of us and some of those have deadly consequences.  Trying to reduce unnecessary access to some of these kinds of things helps as well as not having access to others at all. 

For some people none of these concerns mean much if they live alone, don’t have children etc.  Having a loaded pistol under their pillow would seem pretty mundane, who would really care?

A story for the support of firearms for protection…

Dr. Suzanna Gratia-Hupp - A victim’s perspective (youtube) Linky

Hupp and her parents were having lunch at the Luby’s Cafeteria in Killeen in 1991 when the Luby’s massacre* commenced. The gunman shot 50 people and killed 23, including Hupp’s parents. Hupp later expressed regret about deciding to remove her gun from her purse and lock it in her car lest she risk possibly running afoul of the state’s concealed weapons laws; during the shootings, she reached for her weapon but then remembered that it was “a hundred feet away in my car.” Her father, Al Gratia, tried to rush the gunman and was shot in the chest. As the gunman reloaded, Hupp escaped through a broken window and believed that her mother, Ursula Gratia, was behind her. Actually however, her mother went to her mortally-wounded husband’s aid and was then shot in the head.

*The Luby’s massacre was a mass murder that took place on October 16, 1991, in Killeen, Texas, United States when George Hennard (born October 15, 1956) crashed his pickup truck through the front window of a Luby’s cafeteria, shot 50 people (killing 23), exchanged shots with responding police, and then hid in a bathroom and fatally shot himself. It was the deadliest shooting rampage in American history until the 2007 Virginia Tech massacre and the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting on December 14th, 2012

oppiejoe - 05 January 2013 06:55 PM

A story for the support of firearms for protection…

Dr. Suzanna Gratia-Hupp - A victim’s perspective (youtube) Linky

Hupp and her parents were having lunch at the Luby’s Cafeteria in Killeen in 1991 when the Luby’s massacre* commenced. The gunman shot 50 people and killed 23, including Hupp’s parents. Hupp later expressed regret about deciding to remove her gun from her purse and lock it in her car lest she risk possibly running afoul of the state’s concealed weapons laws; during the shootings, she reached for her weapon but then remembered that it was “a hundred feet away in my car.” Her father, Al Gratia, tried to rush the gunman and was shot in the chest. As the gunman reloaded, Hupp escaped through a broken window and believed that her mother, Ursula Gratia, was behind her. Actually however, her mother went to her mortally-wounded husband’s aid and was then shot in the head.

*The Luby’s massacre was a mass murder that took place on October 16, 1991, in Killeen, Texas, United States when George Hennard (born October 15, 1956) crashed his pickup truck through the front window of a Luby’s cafeteria, shot 50 people (killing 23), exchanged shots with responding police, and then hid in a bathroom and fatally shot himself. It was the deadliest shooting rampage in American history until the 2007 Virginia Tech massacre and the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting on December 14th, 2012

However there is no guarantee that the gunman wouldn’t have seen her pulling it out and shot her too.  In which case that would not have prevented anything.  We can surmise what might happen in cases like that but unless it actually happens it’s just one of many possibilities.  I’m actually surprised that someone else didn’t have a gun on them in that instance.  I wonder if anyone knows if someone there actually did have a gun but didn’t have time to use it.  That would be one counter point to the assertion that having a gun prevents stuff like that. 

The thing is that even in cases like that if she had had her pistol with her she might have been able to kill the gunman but not before he had already murdered several other people.  So it wouldn’t have been a deterrent in any case.

gray - 05 January 2013 09:30 PM

However there is no guarantee that the gunman wouldn’t have seen her pulling it out and shot her too.  In which case that would not have prevented anything.  We can surmise what might happen in cases like that but unless it actually happens it’s just one of many possibilities.  I’m actually surprised that someone else didn’t have a gun on them in that instance.  I wonder if anyone knows if someone there actually did have a gun but didn’t have time to use it.  That would be one counter point to the assertion that having a gun prevents stuff like that. 

The thing is that even in cases like that if she had had her pistol with her she might have been able to kill the gunman but not before he had already murdered several other people.  So it wouldn’t have been a deterrent in any case.

Add to that this question. Would the gunman in this instance had a gun in the first place had there been an effective gun control law in place?

Would a gun control law have reduced the overall number of deaths that year in that state? I would’ve thought it would.

Gray:
You will never convince her that she was better off without her weapon… She lost her mother and father without it… He rushed the gunman and after he was mortally wounded her mother chose to go comfort him after the gunman moved to another area instead of escape through the broken window with her daughter… then the gunman came BACK to her mother and executed her by shooting her in the head as she huddled with her dying husband of 47 years.

Dr. Suzanna Gratia-Hupp was behind a table with AMPLE to pull out her weapon and fire PRIOR to either of her parents being shot. She tells that the gunman shot from 12 feet away and she crouched under cover for a full 45 seconds before she realized that this was not a robbery but a mass murder… she had PLENTY of time by her own recollection to pull and fire her weapon if she had it…and that she survived where 23 others did not shows that the gunman could only focus on so many targets at once. Her father only rushed the guy because she was defenseless and he thought he could tackle the gunman (and I can only speculate he was trying to save his wife and daughter) costing him his life (no one can outrun a bullet).

This from someone who doesn’t hunt and only carried it for personal protection… but it was a FELONY for HER to carry it and thus she took it out of her purse a couple months prior to the day she needed it because she didn’t want to be arrested for carrying it… and then lost her mother and father by not having it in the purse (it was in the car 100 yards away). Her efforts lead to the Texas legislature passing CCW laws in Texas.

It has been said before in this thread: The wackos who are using the firearms to kill people are NOT complying with the laws and their intentions are to kill as many people as they can with their tool of choice.. the weapon is NOT to blame (it is functioning just as intended) and even “assault rifles” with large capacity magazines could have a self protection purpose (have you ever seen a riot and imagine a situation where that mob is trying to invade your home?) If guns weren’t available they would use explosives or poison or radiation or fire or edged weapon or a vehicle or bombs or whatever tool they can get their hands on.

Rampage killers DO NOT CARE what the weapon is… only the effect.
Where firearms are not available they STILL do the same thing:
Frederick Moses McCallum, 19, Jan. 30, 1969 Buffalo Narrows, SK Canada killed 7 wounded 1 by melee weapon
Wirjo, 42:  April 15, 1987 Banjarsari,  Indonesia 20 killed 12 injured by melee weapon
Maksim Kiselev 27,  Feb. 26, 2008 Orton, Russia killed 6 wounded ? by melee weapon
Damian Karlik/Kirilik 38,  Oct. 17, 2009 Rishon LeZion, Israel killed 6 wounded 0 by melee weapon
Arsenio Formentera,  Jan. 28 1968 Palompon Philippines killed 17 wounded ? by melee weapon
Domingo Salazar 42, Oct. 11 1956 San Nicolas Philippines Killed 16 wounded 1 by melee weapon
David Malcolm Gray 33, Nov. 13/14 1990 Aramoana New Zealand Killed 13 wounded 3 by melee weapon
Bai Ningyang, 18, May 8, 2006 Shiguan China 12 killed and 5 wounded by melee weapon and arson
Wu Huanming, May 12, 2010 Linchang, China 9 Killed 11 wounded by melee weapon
Kiichiro Nakamura 36,  Sep. 7, 1954 Toyotsu, Japan 8 killed 3 wounded by melee weapon
Li Xianliang 36,  Aug. 1, 2010 Nanzuo, China killed 11-17 wounded 24-30 (must be varying reports) by vehicle
Santosh Maruti Mane, 40, Jan. 25, 2012 Pune, India killed 8 wounded 27 by vehicle
George Russell Weller 86,  July 16, 2003 Santa Monica, CA U.S. killed 10 wounded 63 by vehicle (yeah - firearms available)
Bobomurad Ismatov, Feb. 7, 1994 Kulyab, Tajikistan killed 12 injured 28 by grenade
Jin Ruchao, 41, March 16, 2001 , Shijiazhuang, China killed 108 wounded 38 by bomb
Zhang Pilin, 37 , May 7, 2002 Dalian, China killed 111 Set fire to the passenger cabin of an airplane; died in the crash.
Melee weapons are defined as: knives, swords, spears, machetes, axes, clubs, rods, stones, or bare hands

Notable are also the Oklahoma City bombing that killed 168 & injured 680 and of course the World Trade Center/Pennsylvania/Washington D.C. attack of 9/11/2001 that killed 2,996 (and don’t even make me try to give a list of terrorism attacks abroad that use explosives, car bombs, IED, poison gas, fire, and suicide bombers [etc])

and these are but a few of the many… (see attached - not all are firearm free AND it isn’t JUST the US where this stuff happens)

DEAD IS DEAD REGARDLESS OF THE TOOL USE

@ Peter:
It still happens in countries with “effective gun control laws”:
UK - The Cumbria England shootings in 2010 led to 13 fatalities and 11 injured when Derrick Bird shot and killed three people connected to himself, and 12 others in an apparently random shooting spree before turning the gun on himself. Bird held legal permits for three shotguns and a rifle. For 2010/11, police in England and Wales recorded 648 offences as homicide, of which 58 (9%) involved the use of firearms - a rate of 0.1 illegal gun deaths per 100,000 of population. The number of homicides per year committed with firearms in England and Wales remained between 39 and 81 in the nine years to 2010/11, with an average of 58.3 per year. During the same time period, there were three fatal shootings of police officers in England and Wales, and 149 non-fatal shootings, an average of 16.5 per year.

I find this stat significant as well: The United Kingdom has a total recorded crime rate per capita of approximately 85 per 1000 people; the United States of America records approximately 80 (per 1000).

By crime type:
Violence against the person:
Homicide = 60In the year Apr 2010 to Mar 2011 there were 11,227 recorded offences involving firearms, broken down as follows.

By weapon type:
Long-barrelled shotgun = 406
Sawn-off shotgun = 202
Handgun = 3,105
Rifle = 74
Imitation firearm = 1,610
Unidentified firearm = 957
Other firearm = 670
Air weapons = 4,203

Only those items proven to be “imitations” (which includes BB/soft air types) or air weapons are classed as such, otherwise they are placed by default in the main “live” categories, e.g. an imitation pistol not proven to be such would be counted as a live “handgun.” “Other firearm” includes CS gas (223 crimes), pepper spray (118), and stun guns (149).

Attempted murder/GBH with intent = 757
Other = 3,317 (1,212 of which involved imitations)
Robbery = 2,965
Burglary = 151
Criminal damage = 3,287 (2,916 of which involved air weapons)
Other = 690