Just like the Freemasons, the druids had elaborate rituals of initiation in which ancient secrets were passed on from an

This should probably go in Conspiracis,..

In any case, it’s probably the other way around, with the Masons mimicing the rituals of the Druids in order to give their group an air of ancient knowledge and mysticism. They looked at old descriptions of druidic rites in much the same way kids playing D&D pore over source books and said ‘Hey, this sounds cool, and will impress the new members’.

I don’t give them any legitimate ties to ancient druids any more than the Rosicrutians have ties to Egypt, $cientologits have ties to space aliens, or the WBC ties to human decency.

Mind you, most of what is written about “Druid ritual” are 18th-19th century inventions. The “Most Ancient Order of the Druids” is a 19th century invention too.

We know very little about Keltic rites 2000 yrs ago except for (highly coloured) 2nd and 3rd hand accounts by some Roman generals and historians.

I also doubt the whole Egypt—-> Phoenicians—-> Druids line. That smacks of old fashioned 19th century “Ex Oriente Lux” theory. In fact, I am not aware the Phoenicians ever established colonies in Britain: as far as I know (but, it is not my primary period, I am a paleolithic archaeologist), there is no evidence for that.

Freemasonry and neo-Paganism basically both originate in the same time period: Rennaissance, and Romantic period (late 17th-mid 19th century). So yes, they will have borowed from each other’s symbolism, and neo-Paganism (as it is somewhat younger, 18-19th century, while Freemasonry is 17th century in origin but in its modern form 19th century as well) probably notably borowed from Freemasonry. But that has nothing to do with Prehistoric Celtic religion, it is all post-medieval invention.

UPDATE: see also what I write here….: basically, the founding father of neo-Druidism, Stukeley, was also a Freemason….

Druids were so secretive that even today we don

Yeah, we only know the most vague and basic stuff about druids.  Which works out well for the Neo-Pagans, because it means that they’re pretty much free to make up whatever they want as parts of their “ancient traditions”.

“And then. . .ummmm. . .the next part of the ceremony involves. . .errrrr. . .involves all the women taking off all of their clothing and dancing!  Yeah!”

The Phoenicians only started to really take off and go some time around 1100 BC, after the Egyptian and Hittite empires had been knocked into decline by some mysterious event (usually linked to the elusive “Sea People”).  They eventually established lots of colonies in North Africa and Spain and that area, which did trade with the Britons—mainly for tin from Cornwall, if I recall correctly.  The Phoenician colony of Gades (now Cadiz) in Iberia was the main group involved with the tin trade, apparently, but they were very secretive about their sources.  Nobody is quite sure when they started trading with Britain.  Herodotus mentions it vaguely in Book 3 of his Histories, which makes it around the mid-4th Century BC at the latest.  But it wasn’t until about that same time that the Celts moved into Britain, which means that they wouldn’t have had much experience with the Phoenicians.

The Phoenicians didn’t have much to do with Gaul.  Gaul was in the Greek sphere of influence, and the Greeks and the Phoenicians were careful to keep out of each other’s way (except for in Sicily, where things got complicated).  The Celtic Gauls, then, were influenced more by Phocaean culture and not by Phoenician. . .which is why they’re called “Celts” in the first place, that being a Greek-derived name.

So, seeing as how Phoenician culture isn’t that influenced by Egyptian, and that Celtic culture isn’t that influenced by Phoenician, it’s not too likely that the druids were inspired by ancient Egypt.

If they are going to take all their clothes off I can think of better things to do than dance.

gray - 07 May 2011 01:00 AM

If they are going to take all their clothes off I can think of better things to do than dance.

That all depends on the dance…..  

daveprime - 07 May 2011 11:57 AM

gray - 07 May 2011 01:00 AM

If they are going to take all their clothes off I can think of better things to do than dance.

That all depends on the dance…..  

Horizontal bop??

Wow, I didn’t know that you all were druids. . .

I suppose that it is possible the Masons adopted a few of their ideas from the Romanticist version of druidism, but most of what little I do know about Masonic rites and rituals seems more based on other stuff.  Christianity, Judaism, Romanticist versions of Egypt, and just general sort of common everyday folk superstitions.

daveprime - 07 May 2011 11:57 AM

gray - 07 May 2011 01:00 AM

If they are going to take all their clothes off I can think of better things to do than dance.

That all depends on the dance…..  

*does a little dance*

Madmouse - 08 May 2011 10:31 PM

daveprime - 07 May 2011 11:57 AM

gray - 07 May 2011 01:00 AM

If they are going to take all their clothes off I can think of better things to do than dance.

That all depends on the dance…..  

*does a little dance*

*...Beats Oppie to the SWOOOOONS...*