I’ll repeat the same point I made on the other water thread:  in a broad view, bottled water is harmful.  It is harmful not because of any property of the water, but because of the environmental effects of wasteful burning of fossil fuels to make plastic bottles, to transport bottled water, and to dispose of trashed bottles.  (Yes—believe it or not, many of those bottles don’t get recycled.  Even ignoring that, recycling plastic bottles ALSO requires the burning of fossil fuels.)

So, since most of us live in places with adequate water supplies already piped right into our homes, all of this energy use is completely wasteful.

If you’re making the claim that the benefit of this type of water (???) outweighs the harm done by this wasteful use of energy, the burden of evidence is squarely on you.

The plural of anecdote is not evidence.

Five star is a level, not a member. Anyone who posts over a thousand posts is a five star member.

followurdreams1 - 24 June 2008 08:33 AM

Double blind tests usually prove a wide range of results so I expect that to be stated.

What?

A well designed study leaves no doubt whatsoever as to the results.  You must state the hypotheses ahead of time (defining the experimental hypothesis and the null hypothesis), describe the methodology (including how results will be measured) and what statistical tools will be used to analyze the data collected.  All of this must be spelled out before the test is conducted. 

Once the test is conducted, the data collected, and the statistical analysis run, the results are clear, either you can reject the null hypothesis (and thereby add support to your hypothesis) or you cannot.  If you get a positive result (reject the null hypothesis at the confidence level specified), the next step is for someone else at a different institution to attempt to reproduce the study. . . .

Well designed double blind tests do NOT “usually prove a wide range of results”.

Moderator, I stand corrected and meant to add the name.  I have corrected that.  Thank you for the information.

As for double blind tests, you do get a range of results when working with humans.  Everyone is different.  The FINAL RESULTS are a culmination and often report an average and state such.  Yes, the best tests are done in 3rd party professional settings.  I expect that is what is being done!

In shortening my posts, I neglected to go into an explanation of what I was saying so thank you for pointing me in the right direction.  ; )

I’m following my dreams… are you?

followurdreams1 - 24 June 2008 08:52 AM

As for double blind tests, you do get a range of results when working with humans.

No you don’t. 

The results of a double blind test are not the same as the raw measures collected from each subject.

This is precisely why you do a double blind, randomized test and don’t rely on anecdotes or testimonials.  You also need a sample size large enough to detect an effect at the confidence level specified.

Even so, both Type I and Type II errors are possible.  That’s why it’s important to be able to reproduce the results again and again following the same methodology.

Remember, the claim that this water is superior to that water is an extraordinary claim.  It carries with it a lot of baggage (it goes against widely-held scientific consensus supported by an abundance of evidence).

It struck me that the IBO’s are all very fanatic when it comes to defending their ‘beliefs’, almost in a cult-like fashion, and then i read THIS:

(WIKI)

Several groups including those associated with the anti-cult movement have expressed concern that tactics of some of the organizations that support Amway IBOs may constitute cult-like activity. Steven Hassan’s Freedom of Mind Center lists the practices of some of these groups as potentially abusive according to his “BITE” Model of mind control. Other similar organizations that have expressed concern with the activities of AMOs in practice include FACTnet, Cult Awareness and Information Centre (Australia), and others. The Rick Ross Institute keeps a collection of related material on its website.

“Got a brain to wash? Try Perfect Water!“

Tobestar, why do you think that passion about what you have chosen to do in life makes it a “cult?“  Have you ever been involved?  What do you know of it from experience?  Hearsay?  I’m interested to hear honest opinions.  If you have any please share them. 

I’m following my dreams… are you?

As much as I would like to believe that you have a passion for water, I think your passion is more one for money.
Reality check: There is no such thing as easy money.Sure, someone is making a lot of money from this, but I’m pretty sure it’s not you.

Keep following your dreams buddy, they will always be one step ahead of you.

Tobester - 24 June 2008 09:32 AM

As much as I would like to believe that you have a passion for water, I think your passion is more one for money.

<3

Tobestar & Moderator,

You are right and you are wrong… I admit that I do have a passion for more money in my life… that is why I work at my business.  Don’t you earn money?  Is there something wrong with that?  Life economically right now is pretty difficult for many people and I struggle right along with those people.  Do you?  If you don’t, bravo!  I’m pleased for you!  I bet you are grateful then, right?

As for the products, can you see my heart, do you know what I feel?  This company produces quality products and YES, I am passionate about that.  I have worked in other MLMs and each time I chose only to work with the company if the products were QUALITY.  I could not rep products that were inferior or shoddy.  Now, don’t get all nit-picky with me and use that word “inferior” on me ; )

Say what you may, you have said a lot already, about this company (name left off in respect of moderators request althought it might be appropriate here since it’s in the topic title - but I do not want to rock the proverbial boat)...  This forum stands to expose “hoaxes” right?  Well, here is the flip side of what you call a hoax.

This company (see title) has been around for almost 50 years,
-the nutritional products were developed over 60 years ago and have been scientifically (yes, company scientists but I bet they are as conscientious as the major pharmaceutical company scientist) monitored and modified as needed.
-certified organic fields are maintained to that certifiable level for the growing of the plants needed for the product
-per Internet Retailer, the Beauty & Nutritional lines of products have been #1 in many of the past years
-per Consumer Guide the Laundry product——- (name left off in respect) was rated #1 in both quality and cost

There is more but I’m not really here to advertise, I’m simply passionate about the great quality products that make me money (& remember that I would not make money if the products were not good).  I will, since I am here though, defend a GREAT company that you are trying to malign.  I by the way am not a Diamond and may never be one.  I have done my research and come up in favor of this company and you will NOT deter me from my opinions.  I will however try to state them as respectfully as I can. 

What I have found is that people who know someone who knew someone has an opinion when they have never been involved themselves.  If find that unacceptable…. that is mearly rumors.

Admittedly there are bad experiences.  Unfortunately that happens.  I’m sorry for anyone who has had a bad experience. 

There are many factors that go into success or failure for someone in an MLM.  For failure it could be bad mentorship (that’s a sad one), lack of motivation (a legal MLM is not a get-rich-quick schemes which are out there but my company is NOT one of them), bad training, bad timing, bad products, negative friends and family that affect the mental stamina… and more.  For success in an MLM you need good leadership and mentorship, thorough training, a strong back-bone and good work ethic and great products. 

I’m neither here to recruit anyone (woah, most of you would be too much work to get to the positive side ; )  nor am I here to sell you anything!!!!!  My being here is to bring conversation on a different note, supporting the opposite side sometimes.  There are other topics that need that here but I began where the google search brought me.  So, like me or not, that does not matter.  YOUR opinions are not necessarily right, My opinions are not necessarily right, they are simply (or more complicated in some cases - you know who you are) OUR opinions.  If you are not open to hearing any other side the so be it.  I’m not attempting to force my opinion on anyone.  I’m mearly hear to open your mind to thinking that maybe… just maybe there is another side : )

Y’all have a great day!

I’m following my dreams… are you?

NEPTUNE - 17 May 2008 02:07 AM

If you really want to improve your health then get off you a$% and do something.  Try eating veggies, fruits, unprocessed whole foods, and take responsability for your health.  Don’t expect to suddenly get strengthened and energized by some over priced miracle bottled water that runs clean in many of our moutain streams.  Do what you will but at least consider what I have presented.  Good luck and live every day!

Rats!  I wanted some magic water to do all the work for me.