Very interesting. Can you provide a cite for us? Thanks.
“Psychological Variables in Human Cancer” - Bruno Klopfer, Journal of Prospective Techniques vol.31 (1957)
In the 1950s, a patient by the name of Wright, was undergoing treatment for cancer of the lymph nodes. To that date, standard treatments had done little to impede his disease and Wright had orange-sized tumours throughout his body, including in the neck, armpits and groin; also his spleen and liver were so enlarged that two quarts of fluid had to be drained from him every day. He was not given long to live. Wright, however, had heard about a promising new drug Krebiozen, and convinced his doctor to let him try it. The doctor gave Wright an injection of Krebiozen on Friday, but realistically did not expect Wright to survive the weekend.
By the following Monday, however, Wright was out of bed and walking around. The tumours had “melted like snowballs on a hot stove” to half their original size. Within ten days Wright left the hospital, cancer free. He was to remain that way for two months, until articles appeared in the scientific literature to the effect that Krebiozen had exhibited no beneficial effect on cancer of the lymph nodes. Wright became very depressed at this development, and was quickly readmitted to the hospital with a relapse. Faced with no other options, the doctor decided to experiment. He told Wright that Krebiozen was completely effective and that the results were due to initial supplies of the drug deteriorating during shipping. He offered to treat Wright with a new highly concentrated version of the drug. The ‘concentrated’ form was, in fact, plain water, though the doctor went through elaborate preparations before injecting Wright with the placebo.
Again the tumors melted away, chest fluid vanished, and Wright was quickly restored to his former health. He remained symptom-free for another two months, until an AMA announcement that a nationwide study of Krebiozen had found the drug ineffective for the treatment of cancer. Wright’s faith in Krebiozen vanished completely, his cancer returned with a vengeance and he died, two days later.
What makes this above story ironic is that even the first treatment with Krebiozen was a placebo. The drug was a fraud.
I was so disgusted by some of your posts that I registered to post this one time.
Bobcat - You claim to be a skeptic on the NAET topic, but you have done nothing but rant, insult, and crow if you run someone off the board. I’m somewhat shocked that the moderator hasn’t warned YOU for violating the code of conduct. Not everyone is a great typist, either. If there are some typos, some missing commas, so what?? I noticed quite a few misspellings in your remarks, but the maturity of the other posters won out, and they let it go.
It would be nice to see a courteous, open forum to discuss controversial topics such as this one, but this is NOT it. Anotherone tried to make his point over and over that he wasn’t sure why NAET has been successful in some situations, but you other posters either declined to read his comments, or you were so worried about insulting him, you completely missed his point.
I have attended nursing school, (before you ask, Bobcat—Baylor University, a respected and legitimate school), so I don’t see NAET being grounded in any hard science that I learned. I DO KNOW that I have friends with autistic children and kids with eczema who have seen marked results with the NAET techniques. If I were to act like most of you, I would taunt them and call them names, because they believe it works. Instead, I’ll continue to read about it and listen to their experiences, even if I think it sounds a little crazy. If something improved a chronic condition in MY kid, I’d be following up on it wholeheartedly.
Respond to my post if you like, but as I said, I only wanted to post this one time. I’m so disheartened to see another mean-spirited, caustic site that provides a forum for pathetic souls such as Bobcat.
I don’t usually comment on spelling, grammar or typos, simply because there are too many to deal with. As you pointed out, I am often subject to the same whims of poor spelling, though I should point out the great number of those are typographical errors and not actual spelling, owing to a laptop keyboard that is in its sunset years. I do however gripe about it when sentences are constructed such that it hurts my brain to read them.
You are correct, this is not an open forum for controversial topics. This is a forum full of skeptics and folks who don’t take kindly to people deceiving others, particularly where the health of other human beings is concerned. As for courtesy, we as a forum do strive for it - you will notice I am not calling you a ‘know-nothing poopy-head’ in response to your comments - until that courtesy is abused. Then we tend to strike like vipers.
As for anotherone: We told him why his ‘treatments’ were successful: Placebo Effect. Since he wasn’t willing to provide any concrete evidence or unbiased studies performed regarding this technique, we have to assume that it’s simply yet another snake oil treatment, designed to take money from people who would be better off seeking other medical assistance. I will note that we provided research that showed his treatment as ineffective. If someone shows improvement after NAET, it is pure coincidence, though this is reported as a factual gain by those selling the ‘product’.
I note you say you ‘have attended’ nursing school. Not that you hold a degree, or are still pursuing such. No matter. Surely you would have heard of the Placebo Effect within a few semesters, and why it can have astonishing effects upon those ‘treated’. Just because something ‘does not conform to known science’ does not mean that the cause and effect share causality.
I find it interesting: Since I’m not usually the one posting up the detailed analysis of whatever scam or hoax is being discussed - favoring instead to throw in my two cents, or point out a small tidbit of information overlooked - those who support such foolishness usually choose to attack me. This is because they don’t want to face down, or even acknowledge the overwelming evidence that people such as Acci or David bring to bear. Those people find out quickly that I am usually restraining my impulse to tear them a proverbial new one, and am quite capable of returning ad hominem in kind, and usually a lot better than them.
Mean-spirited and caustic we may be - heck, I’ll even cop to patheticness - but at least we’re not about to fall for someone who is willing to share ten million dollars with us if we give them our bank information. We aren’t here to be nice to people who don’t deserve it.
Not that you care, since, as you said, this was just a drive-by insult. A quick dropping in to tell me what a horrible, horrible person I was, and how I should be upset that some anonymous stranger out in the wide world doesn’t like me. I shall now go and weep bitter tears and possibly write poetry in my black journal, for you have truly devastated my fragile world view.
Interesting article on the Top 10 Holistic Medicine Traps.
First up: Dubious Diagnostics. What’s that in the picture? An owner holding out their arm and a glass bottle being held against a dog.
Mmmm. Sounds familiar.
“1. Dubious Allergy Diagnostics and Treatments
In January 2008, the Washington state attorney general and Department of Health secretary asked the FDA to block the sale and distribution of unproven and dangerous “energy medicine” devices, citing several, including Bicom, Bodyscan and VEGA.1 Other dubious allergy-testing techniques include applied kinesiology (AK), pulse testing, and hair analysis.”
I wait with baited breath for rationalized replies.
CAN NAMBUDRIPAD LEGALLY USE THE LETTERS “M.D.” IN CALIFORNIA?
According to her website, Devi. S. Nambudripad, the person who “discovered” NAET in November 1983 (http://www.naet.com/subscribers/what.html), claims to be an “M.D.” http://www.naet.com/CurriculumVitae.pdf
Her claim to those letters is based on “Doctor of Medicine from UHSA, Antigua, January 2002.” (http://www.naet.com/CurriculumVitae.pdf). So what is this UHSA, where Nambudripad got her medical degree 19 years after she “discovered” NAET?
The University of Health Sciences-Antigua (UHSA) is based in Antigua, West Indies.
I did a google search, found this thread, and want to post my own experience.
I have an eye gland condition that “mainstream medicine” is not being very helpful with. (Ocular Rosacea causing a chalazion in the same spot.) On the advice of a couple friends, I went to a Naturopathic Doctor here in Toronto where I live. That he was a practitioner in NAET I only discovered during the visit, and in fact, he never used the term while examining me. I had never had heard of it before today.
This is how the examination went:
I showed up on time, after biking halfway across the city. I had been instructed to not wear any deoderent or use “hygeine supplies” with fragrances, so I was nice and stinky upon arrival. The doctor asked me what was ailing me, and I showed him the remnants of my last chalazion. He asked for the circumstances (job situation, relationship situation, etc.) when the chalazions usually flared up. He made many notes on my diet. Up until this point, everything seemed normal. That changed when the exam began.
I was instructed to lay on my back on his examining table. He told me to raise my left arm in front of me, and to try and resist him pushing my arm down (like a lever) as he put various vials in my right hand. The vials were labelled things like “eggs”, “beer”, “nuts 1”, “mixed nuts 2”, “Vitamin C” and dozens of other things. Many had clear fluid in them, but some of them looked to contain what they were labeled as.
Once in awhile he would succeed in pushing my arm down, seemingly with me being powerless to stop it. My feeling is when he did so, he pulled my arm at more of an angle—towards himself—instead of pulling it straight down to my side, which would have been easier for me to resist. (That is, when he wanted to overpower me, the yanks started with a slight sideways motion before he forced my arm down.) Furthermore, it seemed obvious to me that he put considerably greater effort into moving my arm at times. Most of the time, though, my arm didn’t budge.
Anyway, about 30 seconds into this “slot machine” exersize (which has left my deltoid quite sore!) I was torn between wanting just to get the hell out, and being angry at myself for being duped. I was also disappointed that something I had high hopes for was a scam, and it was obvious that this the “doctor”—referred to me by satisfied friends—was a quack. I mean, how could various substances sealed away in a vial I clutched in one hand have a muscular effect on my other arm? The highlight was when he dispensed with the vials altogether, and precariously balanced his laptop computer in the nook of my arm, and showed he could pull down on my left arm with ease. Apparently this proved I had a “sensitivity to computers”.
The other “sensitivities” I had were to many of the things I had earlier told him were routine parts of my diet. I regretted having given him my diet beforehand, but of course realized this was all part of his routine. No doubt the sensitivity to computers was inevitable when I earlier told him I am a computer programmer by profession.
He decided to focus on my sensitivity to Vitamin C just for today, and gave me a short massage and pressed on various reflex points in my hands and feet. He told me to avoid anything containing Vitamin C for 25 hours. Further sessions will correct my sensitivity to Wheat, Beer, Animal Fats and an assortment of other stuff—all big parts of my diet—and finally, to computers!
He printed out an information sheet for me, tailor made for me based on my test results. This is where I saw for the first time the word “NAET”, as it said “Please eliminate those foods which showed weakness on your NST test and other allergy tests until you get NAET treatments to correct your sensitivities to those items.” Because 90% of what I eat ended up being a “sensitivity”, it would seem I am either going to be fasting long term or radically changing my diet until I see this doctor many more times at great personal expense!
Speaking of expense, the whole episode cost me $125 cash, which was after a $25 discount because of being referred by a friend.
On my way out of the office, and while on a long bike ride back home, I was bummed out, but looking forward to googling this strange branch of medicine. I wholly expected to find thousands of pages dedicated to what is obviously a complete ruse, and have been surprised that this small thread is one of the better exposés.
My first experience with a Naturopathic Doctor has been a bad one, and I am going to do more research into this field before jumping in again, if I do at all. I hope this NAET business isn’t typical of alternative medicine?
Signed,
Bub Paulson, a.k.a Disappointed in Toronto
I read through some of the interesting discussion on this board regarding NAET and its validity. All I can say is that at the first visit, I too thought it seemed like absolute quackery. I almost laughed when they tested my arm strength for allergies but out of courtesy kept it all inside. I am a trained dentist so as you would understand I was VERY skeptical. HOWEVER, having suffered from contact dermatitis since birth and severe reactions to seafood I was as surprised as any skeptic that all these problems CLEARED with the treatment. My father is a GP, also laughed at the treatment, ate his own words when I ate seafood in front of him with zero reaction for the first time in over 30 years.
Having said that, I agree that HEALTHY skepticism is required to stop people from harming themselves. However NAET appears to me to be totally harmless.
However I would also like to point out that:
- Mankind cannot begin to understand everything about health/medicine at this point of time. Modern medicine has really only taken off within the past 100 years or more. This is what we call “science”.
- Acupuncture and energy medicine has in contrast, been practiced since 5000BC. Acupuncture could have been around 50 times longer than “modern medicine”. Don’t forget that modern medicine is still in extremely infantile stages if compared to oriental acupuncture medicine from which NAET draws inspiration from. Although we think we know a lot about health, we actually know very little.
In my HUMBLE opinion BOTH western medicine and eastern techniques including NAET can coexist for the benefit of human kind. To deny access to either one would be a travesty.
Those that live in a free country should be able to CHOOSE for themselves what is right for them.
I think we run into problems when these FREEDOMS are undermined by overzealous persons who try to undermine any particular alternative branch of medicine just because they themselves do not believe in it. Lobbying for the destruction of alternative therapies just because they don’t believe in it. personally attacking such practitioners on forums etc. questioning credentials etc.
Those that do not believe in NAET are FREE to choose conventional allergy injections/ treatment. Just don’t use NAET!
However to reduce the right of others who have benefitted from NAET (placebo or not) and to hurt the practitioners appears to me like a totalitarian perhaps selfish approach.
We live in a democracy and I for one relish my right to choose how to treat myself no matter how silly it sounds to others.
May I suggest to those that think they have the moral right to regulate what is wrong or right treatment for others, perhaps should book a one way ticket to a dictatorship perhaps immigrate to North Korea where others will decide what is good for them. I see this as no different as Unhealthy skeptics who IMPOSE their beliefs on others.
*sigh* Thank you.. we’ve been somewhat hoping this thread would just die, but no…
In any case, to refute your arguments:
- The harm of NAET comes not from its process, but from making people think that it is effective and charging money for it. This prevents folks from seeking other treatments, and if a serious ailment is left untreated, it will likely get worse.
- Modern medicine has made some great leaps, namely processes by which one can determine what actually cures ailments in a body and what doesn’t. True, our knowledge is finite, and there are still gaps, but we generally know a placebo effect combined with confirmation bias when we see it.
- Then you will also be signing up for trepanation, which has an even LONGER history than acupuncture, on the basis that if it has been practiced for so long, it MUST be good, right? Just because something has existed for a long time does not make it better.
- I point out that this ‘free society’ doesn’t allow people to scam others for money, no matter how willing they are to be deceived. The state you describe, where there is no protection offered by law against con artists, is generally referred to as ‘anarchy’.
- We have no problems with the offering of alternative methods. What we have a problem with is offering grandiose claims of miraculous cures with no corresponding third-party results offered.. In other words, for something as supposedly wonderful as this technique, it performs no better than placebo.
- Your tone sugguests you are not, in fact, open to fair discussion. If you have nothing against fair discussion, please refrain from the standard fallacies of debate, as they tend to weaken your position and make us giggle at your flailing attempts at a conversation.
I ask you this: What would it take for you to change your mind about this technique? What information could we offer you, that would make you say ‘I was wrong, this technique does not work’?
We are certainly willing to change our minds, if sufficiently compelling information is provided. A third-party, properly-conducted study, that’s all we ask. Not that we ever get it. We also asked for a pony, and never got that. Fortunaely, ponies are easier to believe in.
- The harm of NAET comes not from its process, but from making people think that it is effective and charging money for it. This prevents folks from seeking other treatments, and if a serious ailment is left untreated, it will likely get worse.
An example of believing in dubious claims at the expense of more mainstream methods being harmful: During a war with the US in the Indian Wars, one medicine man (I think it might have been Iron Jacket?) said that he could make bullets turn aside from himself and his followers. His followers believed him, and so he and many of his men charged straight into the guns of the enemy. Now, claiming that you can turn aside bullets doesn’t do any harm in itself. Nor does believing that somebody can turn bullets aside from you. But if you put all your faith in that claim, go riding off into battle, and then don’t bother to take the more usual precautions (advancing from behind cover, dodging and ducking around, and suchlike), and if it turns out that the person’s claims aren’t quite as accurate as they and you think that they are, then you’re going to be in trouble.
Iron Jacket and many of his men were shot to death in battle.
