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How Did Jesus Really Die?????
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Posted By:
X
in McKinney, TX
Jun 08, 2005
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Some people believe that Jesus Didn't die on the cross....Some speculate that He was so dehidrated that the blood flow slowed down so he didn't bleed to death and was awoken by Mary after he was placed in Tomb simply by giving him water....
A new scientific study shows something else. A blood clot???? Here is the link:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8139434/
Update: No new comments can be added to this thread.
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Comments
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lindsay
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 | 11:24 PM
and to answer your question as to why my God is real and others arent is as I have said before...i have had experince with God. I know that you cant follow by faith and you have to have proof but I can tell you that God is more real to me than you are. He's a part of my everyday life and everyday I sense him in some way. I am a person who is strong in faith becuase i am an inesesor..God allows me to feel things and know things about people that i would have no way of knowing unless they told me or I shared the experince. But you will only be skeptical to the experinces that I have had and my relationship with God so i wont elborate unless someone actualy wants to hear |
crankymediaguy
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 | 01:38 AM
Lindsay said:
"and to answer your question as to why my God is real and others arent is as I have said before...i have had experince with God."
And what makes you think that people who believe in a different God than you do haven't had "experiences with God"? Since you presumably believe that your God is the ONLY God, one or both of you have to be wrong, correct? Your sincere belief in your "experiences with God" does not invalidate in any way the "experiences with God" that THEY believe they have had.
Suppose you met a person who believed in a different God than you do who was to tell you that they have had "experiences" with THEIR God. Imagine that this person was obviously sincere. How could you possibly conclude that THEIR experience MUST be wrong and yours MUST be real? Please respond using facts, not merely by saying that you "know," etc. The other person, after all, would probably feel the same way.
"But you will only be skeptical to the experinces that I have had and my relationship with God so i wont elborate unless someone actualy wants to hear"
I believe that your experiences are real TO YOU, but that does not constitute proof that there is a God or that you have encountered Him. |
crankymediaguy
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 | 01:53 AM
Lindsay said:
"lol my argument is completely different than the earth being flat. I have reason to believe it."
Actually, no, it isn't. Believe it or not, there are still a few people who believe that the Earth is flat. You may be surprised to learn that some of them consider themselves Christians and use the Bible as "proof" of their beliefs. That's why I chose that particular example. Don't you think they think they have "reason to believe" what they believe? If not, why not?
"If I looked at the earth from outer space and saw with my own eyes that it was flat, then indeed it would be flat and I would believe it."
I think you've just made a very good argument for atheism, actually. You're pointing out that belief should be based on FACTS. Seeing that the Earth is round from space would mean that you had FACTS that prove its shape. The Bible, despite your belief in it, contains few facts. It is a collection of stories that people are expected to accept on faith.
I'll ask you this question knowing that you will almost certainly duck it, but here goes: What FACTS do you have to prove that Jesus is the "son of God," that a bush could burn without being consumed, that a man can walk on water, etc. etc.? Don't tell me that the fact that those stories are in the Bible constitutes FACT. It doesn't. Anyone can write a book that says anything at all; that doesn't prove what the book says.
Photographs of the Earth from space are objective proof of the shape of the Earth. Your alleged experiences with God are not.
Have you ever seen David Blaine on TV? If you have, you'll remember that some of the people he did tricks for say that they are "sure" that what he did can't possibly be explained by anything other than the supernatural. I assure you that everything he does is achieved by trickery.
My point here is that what you consider an "experience with God" might be attributable to something other than God.
People are fond of saying that miracles are a one-in-a-million event. If so, then 300 "miracles" occur a day, on average, in America. A thing may be rare and not be a "miracle." |
Larry
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 | 07:52 AM
I made this post in another forum. But, after reading this forum I thought I'd share it here as well.
---------------------------------------
Hello...
I stumbled upon this place by accident really. I was using Google to search for the Russian MIG pilot that defected in the 70's (no, I cannot actually explain how I got here from THAT...but somehow, that search was the origin  )
I cannot tell anyone what they "have" to believe--I wouldn't even think of trying to do as such. People used to try and strong arm me like that and I resented and resisted it. I can only say what I believe and leave it at that. I'm not even sure why I'm posting this. I had no intention of doing so as first. Still...for what it's worth...
I went through a large portion of my life doing my "own thing". It was ok...I had some fun...I did some things but I could always feel something missing...something out of place. I dunno what the exact wording is but I remember the feeling.
I'll keep this brief. Due to a series of intense events in my life, I finally came to what I now consider to be fact. There is a God...there was and is a Jesus...and my life has never been the same since accepting that. My entire outlook on life shifted and I found a peace and a strength that I'd searched for during most of my walk on this earth.
You'll never prove or disprove "religion" by argument or fact. It's been tried and always fails. It's a personal matter between an individual and the Creator. It's a true "close encounter" of a something kind.But, if you ever receive that touch, you cannot deny it's power.
Alas, therein lies the matter. I cannot convince someone of "fact" by something I've experienced in faith. Religion? It's a matter of faith...and, no person can ever instill that in you.
The Bible says: "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Wouldn't make a very strong case in a court of law, eh?
I'm no expert on theology. I'm just an average guy of, at best, average intelligence and I know that. Nonetheless...it's my sincere wish and...yes, my prayer...that every reader in this topic experiences what I've experienced because it's so special, pure and powerful.
My best wishes to each of you and your families. |
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 | 09:45 AM
Larry, we are not actually trying to disprove religion. We are asking the believers to prove religion, since they are the ones who claim there is a "god". As it turns out they have no proof. Zero. (Faith does not constitute proof.) Your so-called "experiences" could just be in your mind, couldn't they?
I guess you must have forgotten to give your best wishes to all the families that died in the recent tsunami. See my point? Where was your god when this happened?
P.S. What have you found out about Victor Belenko? |
Larry
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 | 11:31 AM
Captain Al,
Hey, good catch on ole' Viktor
That was actually part of what I was trying to find...I'd forgotten his name.
As for proof? I think I've already addressed that. I have no hard, physical proof that would hold up in any court of law. And, I also said there is nothing I can say that can make anyone believe anything. It's up to the individual. I merely shared my personal belief...nothing more, nothing less.
If I'm wrong...if there is no God...then, I'll go to my grave and eternal "nothingness". Nothing really lost...nothing really gained. You'll have your point...
On the other hand...what if I'm right?
As for the tsnnami victims (as in any tragedy actually) my heart went out to them and I sent material help as I could.
How I wish it were that our world would never suffer tragedy. If it were as such, we'd not even be having this debate most likely. We'd be in a state of peaceful bliss I suppose.
Do I see your point? Of course I do...there are many things on earth I cannot explain the whys and whats of. Good/Bad, Good/Evil both exist in the world we live in. It's been like that since the beginning of time...I'm sure the same question has been asked over and over and over...Where was God when this thing happened? I suppose that's where the faith comes in...we will never be able to explain everything in terms of cold, hard fact. If we could, then faith has no meaning...
Am I blind or simple minded? Many would say as such. Maybe they're even right...but I'm told quite clearly that without that faith I can never please the God I believe in.
I truly am an average guy and I don't have all the answers...I cannot tell you why God allows everyhing to happen. You'll have to direct that question to Him. And, I'm not being facetious when I say that.
Hey, you seem like a good guy. I respect your opinions and I truly understand your points and questions. There was a time in my life I'd probably have agreed entirely with you. But, just as the "Saul" that once persecuted and killed Christians experienced something that changed him into "Paul the Apostle"...so too have I experienced something in my life and it's changed my entire outlook as well.
Ok, sorry...I rambled far longer than I intended. I don't want my part in this to turn into a raging debate.
Take care..and, yes---best wishes to you guy. |
lindsay
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 | 11:48 AM
Everyone that I have ever met that is an on fire for God christian can attest to it changing their lives. There are millions of people just like Larry whom lived their whole live as athiest or agnostics or w/e and have an encounter with God. Everyone of those people that I have ever heard about come away different. Their lives become so much better. All on fire christians will tell you that beyond a shawdow of doubt that God is real. That is becuase we have had an experince with him that is more real than this debate. Why dont you open up your mind for a few moments and consider things a different way than how you do. Change your perspective.
Why should everything have to be factual for you to believe it? I know that you are intellegent people so why is it that the only things that you can believe must be explained so that you can understand them and you can agree with them. Face it you will never know everything not everything can be put into factual terms so why is that you live by facts? AS you said before the arrogance of humans knows no end. That is why we must have faith because we will never understand everything. Im not going to push something away becuase its to complex for me.
You a reason that my God is real in cold hard facts right? Well why odnt you tell me why my God cannot be real. |
lindsay
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 | 12:36 PM
"I think you've just made a very good argument for atheism, actually. You're pointing out that belief should be based on FACTS. Seeing that the Earth is round from space would mean that you had FACTS that prove its shape. The Bible, despite your belief in it, contains few facts. It is a collection of stories that people are expected to accept on faith. "
right lol so what undeniable proof do you have that my God doesnt exist?
the point i was making is that i saw the earth and you hadnt...as in ive had experinces with God and you havent. lol how can you say that my experinces werent from God unless youve experinced them yourself? Ive read theories from athiest and those types of things but have you ever had a christians experince? If so then I would be very interested to hear about it
i would also like to know why the majority of the time when people, yes even people as skeptical of christianty as you, are about to die or have virtualy no place to turn to, why they turn to my God...why not other Gods? Why not buddah? Why do christians have so many, and such strong testimonies? do other "Gods" have as many as my God? Do other "gods" have so many people that have died for them or would die for them? So many people that believe so strongly in them? All of hte on fire christians that ive heard of say quite often "How could I not believe in God after hes done for me?"
lol i had something better written but i forgot to type that stupid code so sorry if its not the greatest lol i dont remember everything i had beofore |
lindsay
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 | 12:42 PM
o ya captain al did i not already say that it would be impossible for there to not be a god?
a god could be defined as a supernatural being..a supernatural surpasses the boundries of a humanly being. humans must have a begining so anything that isnt a god must have a beginning. something had to make itself or have been around for ever for life to begin bc it had to start from something..that something must be a god bc it created itself or has been around for ever blahblah i shouldnt have to say more cuz its simple and obvious...there is a god so dont say there isnt...unless you think that a human can create itsself.. |
lindsay
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 | 01:13 PM
o ya i forgot about the whole miracle thing. If JEsus was God then why couldnt he walk on water? he is not bound by our limitations. If God created fire, and he created the bush then he could defy the laws of the fire and the bush and allow the fire to not consume the bush. Maybe we cant becuase we arent god...but God can and if you think about it its really stupid for us to say that a supernatural being cant defy simple laws of physics that he created
im not going to even pretend like i match all of you intellectualy. im a kid lol i dont know that much science...i dont know that much history..i really dont know that much. but whats in my heart about God far surpasses all of that. I know what is most important and that is God. I do believe that the bible is true so for me its a fact but for you i know its a load of crap at the most. you want me to prove my God by facts but i dont believe in my God because of facts..im not smart enough to do that anyway lol
http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html?GCID=S15542x002-IsThere&KEYWORD=proof that god exists
this article makes sense...everything is to coincidental..i want you to think about how coincidental everything is for a moment after reading that
i assume you thought for a moment..that thought that you had proves that there is a God. If there is no God than we were created by something that has no thought..how can we have thought then? How can we have logic if wat created us has no logic? Thats defintly something you should conisder because from all of your theories you dont show where our emotions come from. sure maybe our physicals sides could be created from soemthing but w/e created us must have an emotional side to or esle nothing would that side...its like a tree producing another tree that could talk its doesnt happen. the tree cant talk so it cant create and offspring that talks |
crankymediaguy
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 | 03:54 PM
Lindsay said:
"o ya i forgot about the whole miracle thing. If JEsus was God then why couldnt he walk on water? he is not bound by our limitations. If God created fire, and he created the bush then he could defy the laws of the fire and the bush and allow the fire to not consume the bush."
Lindsay, you gloss over that very big "if" at the start of your statement. I've said this before: you're starting with an assumption and building a very large house of cards on top of it.
"i dont believe in my God because of facts."
That's the truest thing you've said so far. Honestly, doesn't that give you even a moment's pause? You admit that there are NO facts behind what you believe, yet you believe it anyway. I'm not trying to be mean to you, but that's irrational (by definition).
To see the flaw in that "reasoning," simply exchange any other set of beliefs for yours. I believe that an invisible blue hippo lives in my closet and runs the Universe. I know there are no facts to prove that but I believe it anyway. Since you can't absolutely prove that he doesn't exist, that means I'm right. As a believer, this may be difficult for you to process, but your set of beliefs seems no less absurd to me than the one I just made up.
After all, IF there is a Divine Being, he COULD take the form of an invisible blue hippo who chooses to live in my closet, right? I mean God, by definition, is able to do anything. Who are we mere mortals to judge how the Invisible Blue Hippo works? If I find (or write) a book that espouses this same theory, well, that just PROVES that it's right, yes? |
Lindsay
Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 | 04:15 PM
have the blue hippos communicated with you? Then maybe they are God lol
I have communicated with God. I have been told things by him.. on a few occasions felt him.. over all sense him every time im in praise and worship. i do have facts they are my experinces but to you im sure they arent creditable. I know what Gods presence feels like. I can sit back and think about it..and you cant even begin to imagine it. no one can tell me that he isnt real..all that i have to do is raise my hands to him and sing a song from my heart and I can feel a supernatural presence all around me...i could go in deeper but because im a writer if i do then youl have pages on ur hands lol
if im crazy then every other christian who has ever felt God is crazy to..lots of crazy ppl lol
dont think for a second that I blindly believe in God becuase i have passion for him and my passions arent nothing. i have reason to believe him. I have communicated with him much more than i have communicated with you...
thanks for the pointers crankymediaguy its helpful lol no more ifs for lindsay
"i dont believe in my God because of facts."
i should have stated that differently...i dont believe in him bc of science..or anything..i believe in him bc I have met him |
Cranky Media Guy
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 | 07:58 PM
Lindsay said:
"have the blue hippos communicated with you? Then maybe they are God lol"
It's Blue Hippo singular, thank you very much. Do I look like I would believe in MULTIPLE Gods? Sheesh! I'm no polytheist. And by the way, He is INVISIBLE. Of course He has communicated with me, in ways that a non-believer like you cannot possibly understand. His bellow is Word.
"I have communicated with God. I have been told things by him.. on a few occasions felt him.. over all sense him every time im in praise and worship. i do have facts they are my experinces but to you im sure they arent creditable."
Please don't take this the wrong way, OK? From February 1995 to February 1998, I worked outside the White House (yes, the one the President lives in). One of the many fascinating things I learned during that period in my life is that the stretch of Pennsylvania Ave. in front of the White House is like an open-air nut house.
I was friendly with not one, but two, people who thought they were the Second Coming, one of whom would periodically inform me about the new date on which his father--God--was going to flood the Earth so that I could evacuate. He liked me, you see, and wanted me to survive the flood.
I knew a man named Henry Goldgard who absolutely and sincerely believed that the government had put a chip inside his head which forced him to "hear" the thoughts of those around him. I also knew another man who believed that he was being spied on at home by a camera placed inside his TV set by the CIA and the Post Office. He was on a hunger strike to "force" them to remove the hidden camera.
Yes, I'm sure you'd say that they were all crazy. Technically, I'd say they were schizophrenic. All of them were intelligent people and I greatly enjoyed conversing with them. They were all as absolutely convinced of what they believed as you are of what YOU believe. They would happily stand there on Pennsylvania Ave. and defend their beliefs to anyone who asked with great energy and conviction.
No, I am NOT saying that you are insane. What I AM saying is that it is entirely possible for a person to be ABSOLUTELY convinced with every fiber of their being of something that simply isn't true.
As a Supreme Court justice (I forget which one) once said, "Certainty is not the test of certitude. We have been cocksure of a great many things that simply aren't true." In more modern English, that means that being sure of something in no way proves that it's correct. If you don't have FACTS with which to back up your belief(s), you just don't have a good reason to believe in them. In the absence of FACTS, I see no reason to believe in all the God silliness. |
Lindsay
Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 | 08:47 PM
lol nice stories bet it was interseting...how many people in the world share their belief though? If you include all braches of christianty 1/3 of the worlds population would fit in the category.
i do realize that someone can be convinced with every fiber of their being that something is true and it be wrong...but how many people can share the same passionate wrong belief? I do know that just because the majority of people believe soemtithing doesnt make it true but..is there any religion besides christianity that has so many die hard followers? and no lol i didnt take it the wrong way i see you point and i can see why it was made. Its a good arguement but those were two possibly crazy people in front of the white house outa everyone in the world
are you convinced with every fiber of your being that you are correct in saying there is no God? If so...then isnt it possible that your facts may stand in the same place that my experinces do? |
Cranky Media Guy
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 | 09:43 PM
Lindsay said:
"lol nice stories bet it was interseting...how many people in the world share their belief though? If you include all braches of christianty 1/3 of the worlds population would fit in the category."
Yes, so what? I'm not sure that your numbers are correct, but let's just accept them for the sake of the argument. By your numbers, 2/3 of the Earth's population are NOT Christian. Do you think that they DON'T "share their belief," whatever that means?
"i do realize that someone can be convinced with every fiber of their being that something is true and it be wrong...but how many people can share the same passionate wrong belief?"
I assume you believe that Christianity is the only True Religion, yes? Well, acording to YOUR numbers, 2/3 of the people who claim to believe in something "share the same passionate wrong belief."
"I do know that just because the majority of people believe soemtithing doesnt make it true but..is there any religion besides christianity that has so many die hard followers?"
Obviously yes, since--again according to YOUR numbers--2/3 of the believers on Earth are NOT Christians.
As far as being "die hard followers," have you ever heard of "jihad?" Those who engage in that are LITERALLY "die hard followers" of a non-Christian faith.
"Its a good arguement but those were two possibly crazy people in front of the white house outa everyone in the world"
Well, since as I've pointed out, Christianity is NOT the dominant religion on Earth, how can you logically use the NUMBER of people who share a belief as "proof" that it is correct? If you insist on doing that, you lose your own argument.
"are you convinced with every fiber of your being that you are correct in saying there is no God?"
No, I'm not. Nor have I said that there is absolutely no God. What I HAVE said is that there are no FACTS that establish the existance of God. In the absence of any such facts, I simply see no reason to believe in "Him."
"If so...then isnt it possible that your facts may stand in the same place that my experinces do?"
Nope. *I* say that I see no reason to believe in something for which no proof exists and for which many facts argue against. *You* on the other hand insist that FACTS aren't important because you WANT to believe. See the difference? |
Lindsay
Member
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 | 09:59 PM
do you realize how many people there are in the world that dont believe anything? Therefor the other 2/3 of the population does not consist of die hard followers. think about you statistics for a few moments and youll realize your mistake in your comment above. my point was that an outstanding 1/3 of the population is christian..now take all of the other religions in the world and divide the 2/3 amongst them. as someone has pointed out to me before not everyone who claims to be a christian is a die hard christain. But the same goes for other religions as well.
you are very big on the me wanting to believe in God. when did i say i am following God blinding becuase I have the oddest urge to set myself apart from normal teenagers open myself to critism and engage into christianity. Ive witnessed the amazing changes in people lives when they come to Christ. Good changes. People in my life have let me down before but everytime I call on God he answers in some form sometime. Ive never been let down by God and he has blessed me...I dont follow God becuase I want to. I follow God becuase he has shown himself to and i would elaborate but im going to watch a movie lol |
Lindsay
Member
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Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 | 01:36 AM
o ya my numbers are correct i looked at three different survey statitsic thingys |
Cranky Media Guy
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Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 | 01:52 AM
Lindsay said:
"do you realize how many people there are in the world that dont believe anything? Therefor the other 2/3 of the population does not consist of die hard followers."
Nope, re-read what I wrote. I'm simplify it for you. More people believe in religions OTHER THAN CHRISTIANITY than in Christianity. That is correct. Christianity is NOT the dominant religion on Earth.
There are a couple of points to be made here:
1:The number of people who believe in something does not prove nor disprove that what they believe in is correct. Once upon a time, the majority of people on Earth believed that our planet was flat. Did their belief make it true?
2:If the number of people who believe in something DID affect the veracity of it, since Christianity is NOT the dominant religion on Earth, you would be in the minority and would therefore be "wrong."
"you are very big on the me wanting to believe in God. when did i say i am following God blinding becuase I have the oddest urge to set myself apart from normal teenagers open myself to critism and engage into christianity."
I don't understand all you said there, owing to your lack of syntax, etc. I did, however, get the point that you object to my saying that you believe because you WANT to. Since you have said that FACTS do not figure into your belief (you DID say that), it HAS to be that you believe because you WANT to. |
Cranky Media Guy
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Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 | 02:35 AM
I think I "misspoke" in my previous assertion. From this link:
http://www.faithresource.com/showcase/worldreligionsbyrank.htm
it appears that Christianity is the Number One religion on Earth. I am correct, however, that more people believe in other religions so my point
stands. If you're using the number of people who believe in Christianity as "proof" that it is correct, you lose your own argument as more people believe in things you DON'T believe. You're' outnumbered. Next "proof" please. |
Lindsay
Member
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Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 | 10:35 AM
my point was that 1/3 of the earth were all christians thats quite a large chunk of the population. you missunderstand me
1. when youre a christian having an encounterment is not that hard. most christians in the world have had one at least once. There are many people who arent christians that still have had and encounterment though they choose to not believe them or just ignore them. No matter how small the encounterment was I know just from what ive seen that most people have had some sort of encounterment whether they know it was GOd, chose to believe it, or just ignored it. thats quite a few people who have had contact with God.
2. If it is not God that all of the people from 1. have encoutnered then What was it?
3. how many people in the other religions have had encounterments with their "god"?
4. why is personal experince not considered proof. If we were trying to prove that big foot existed and people came on here genuinly claiming to have made contact with big foot then that wouldnt be overlooked. why here? And why are miracles overlooked for that matter? Scientific evidense will never correctly prove or disprove that there is a God. So if you want proof such as that then youll never be satisfied
i was pointing out how niave it is to say that I want to follow God since i am a teenager. There are many adults that are following GOd as they should but the number of teens that are isnt that hi. Ive met alot of people that believe in God like I do but more that dont at my age. When I decided to follow christ that means i decided to follow his rules. you know how teenagers are and you should be able to think about hard it can be to be a christian teenager. theres alot of pressure. and another burden to add on is that if i ever make any mistkae then im a hypocrite. Why would I want to go through something that hard when i could just join in and do it to? Im not ever talking about illegal things. Why would I want to open myself to critism like that from my piers? becuase I love God and becuase of what he has done in my life. i have testimonies and they are proof whether you acknowelde them as such or not. me wanting to believe that God is real is ridiculous. I believe that he is real not because I want to but becuase I have proof from my life. |
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