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New doctors to get quack training
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Posted By:
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
Jun 05, 2005
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Junk science is getting out of control. Now some medical schools will require students to take courses in herbal therapy, accupunture, meditation and other forms of alternative "treatment". How do these people keep their jobs?
Quack medical training
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Comments
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Page 3 of 5 pages < 1 2 3 4 5 > |
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
Member
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Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 | 10:39 PM
Since herbs are plants they probably have nutritional value. But I doubt they have anything in them you can't get from other foods. They vast majority of humans survive without eating any herbs. If there are additional benefits to these herbal "medicines", it should be easy to verify by proper scientific testing. So far no one has. |
Cranky Media Guy
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Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 | 04:07 AM
Sharruma said:
"Cranky
One simple question - Do you eat? If so why?"
Well, I eat because I don't want Ronald McDonald to collect unemployment. Seriously, I eat because my body will cease to function if I go without food for an extended period of time.
"I eat because I beleive my body had requirements for certain nutrients that it finds in the food. If I didn't eat I'd starve to death. Yet the arguments I'm hearing from some people would suggest food does nothing for me."
Who said anything about food not having any salutory effects on the human body?
"Why then is it so hard to believe that there might be something in various herbs that might also be needed by my body. Herbs that might help to cure me if I'm taken ill."
It doesn't make the slightest difference if something seems "hard to believe" or not. Things either work or they don't. The way we test things is NOT by asking people if they believe in them. We test them using double-blind processes. The efficacy of herbs can be tested that way just as virtually anything else can. Conduct proper tests on herbs, prove your conjecture and fair-minded people will be forced to accept the results of the testing.
"A lot of illness is caused by an imbalance in the body that herbs can rectify."
That's a pretty general statement. Which herbs? Which "imbalances?"
"I'm not saying that herbs can cure everything, they won't fix a broken leg, though they can help and cannabis, for example, can be used as an anesthetic - oh and guess what it's a plant, if an illegal one
And why is it illegal if it has no effect?"
OK, for the record, although I grew up in New York City and I'm currently 53 years old, I have never been drunk or high in my life. It isn't a religious thing, I just don't think that intoxication is a good idea.
Having said that, from what I've seen (and I've seen a LOT of people use a LOT of intoxicants), cannabis seems like it's far from the most dangerous drug a person could use recreationally.
My understanding is that it is illegal because large companies with interests in alcohol wanted it to be. Am I recalling correctly that the Volstead Act has something to do with this, or am I confusing two different things?
The fact that cannabis can be used as an anesthetic doesn't prove that plants in general are superior to other types of medicine. Poison ivy is a plant, yes? Rub some all over your body and tell me what it cures, OK? Would you accept the outcome as "proof" that plants are dangerous in general? I doubt it--and you'd be foolish to do so. Every plant or herb needs to be tested individually to determine what it can or cannot do. By the way, I don't think that cannabis is illegal because of its potential use as an anesthetic.
Did you happen to see the reports this week that echinacea has NO effect on the common cold and that St. John's Wort does nothing to help with depression? That was determined by actual TESTING.
By the way, I wouldn't base too many arguments on the actions of politicians if I were you. They'll let you down almost every time. |
Accipiter
Member
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Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 | 09:46 PM
First, for the sake of simplicity, I'll refer to all these various traditional or homeopathic treatments and remedies as "herbal remedies", even if it's something like shark cartilage or vinegar. Next, there are two misconceptions that have to be clarified:
1: Herbal remedies are fakes. This is true in some cases, but not in others. Many herbal remedies do work, although a particular herbal remedy may not work as well as its manufactured counterpart does. Quite a few mainstream pharmaceuticals were originally herbal remedies (aspirin comes to mind, basically being a concentrated dose of the acetylsalicyclic acid that's found in willow bark). Pharmaceutical companies spend vast amounts of money and effort studying samples of various exotic plants, hoping to find the next great wonder-drug. Even herbal remedies that are already commonly known may work just as well as or better than manufactured drugs, but have simply not been studied yet (if a study can't accumulate enough funding in advance, the study often simply doesn't happen). Herbal remedies may also give the medications in a form that's easier to take or less concentrated, which can be important in some cases. However, this doesn't mean that all herbal remedies are potential wonder cures.
2: Because it's natural, it's good for you! Cashews that you buy in cans are not in their natural state. This is because if you ate a can of cashews that had just been harvested, you'd die very painfully. Most plants have developed a wide array of unpleasant surprises for anybody who nibbles on them. And even if the remedy does not harm you by being poisonous, it can be harmful by not being beneficial. If you believe that eating an ounce of dried sea-slug (a natural substance) will cure your cancer, then you might decide to rely on that and not go through chemotherapy (which is a very non-natural procedure). Unfortunately, since sea-slugs have no cancer fighting properties (that I'm aware of, at least), this means that you'd end up dying instead of possibly being cured by chemotherapy. Herbal remedies can be dangerous simply by taking the place of other treatments. Prescription drugs may also give you the same beneficial chemicals found in a herbal remedy, but in a stronger, easier to use form that also leaves out some of the various nasty extra chemicals that the natural product contains.
Anyway, I don't see it as a problem that doctors are learning the more common herbal remedies. . .just as long as they are still being taught "scientific" medicine, too! At worst, this will enable them to know what else their patients may be taking other than prescription medications. And at best, it will provide the patients with a wider range of choices.
That's where the crux of the matter is: who decides what the patient's options are? Is it the doctor, deciding on his own initiative what he believes is best for the patient? Or should the patient be allowed to choose a potentially less effective treatment that the patient prefers? The modern medical community has so much knowledge, but what if some little plant unknown to them but known to many herbalists can cure what the doctors cannot? On the other hand, is it medically ethical for a doctor to allow his patient to take a herbal remedy that he knows will be of less help than a prescription drug? Since this country prides itself on personal freedom, this is a very tricky question, verging as it does on the fringes of the whole "right to die" debate. |
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
Member
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Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 | 05:03 PM
It seems to me people take herbal remedies in the mistaken belief that "herbalists" know something medical science does not or does not want you to know. They think there is a worldwide conspiracy keeping these "cures" secret so that doctors can keep them sick and of course get rich using ineffective conventional treatment.
I'm taking a big risk telling everyone this. If this message gets through, I'll probably be killed. If so, it's been nice knowing all of you. Please name a high school or mountain after me. |
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
Member
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Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 | 05:26 PM
Interesting comments in Bob Park's What's New online newsletter this week (July 29th) on the herbal remedy echinacea.
What's New |
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
Member
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Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 | 05:31 PM
And I forgot. He also comments on that idiotic study about prayer for heart patients. |
Maegan
in Tampa, FL - USA
Member
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Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 | 10:24 AM
I was not under the impression that Ech. was used specifically for the use of colds. I was under the impression that it was used to help boost the immune system. I know that I was using it during hay fever season - to help give me a boost to fight off allergies (which were deffinately an allergy, and not a cold).
I did read something about a lab study that tested the potency of ech. It concluded that of 11 brands, 5 failed multiple test. Tests of potency, lead contamination....etc. I guess that really has more to do with where/when/how they were grown/harvested. Although, the ech. I have bought in the past shows something on the side of the bottle that says how much ech. is in a single capsule...so I just figured that amount was what I was getting per dose.
The place where I found this information also indicated a table that showed EXAMPLES of the test results, but not the test results - so I couldn't check to see if the brand I generally bought was part of the FAIL test group. |
lizzy
in australia
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Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 | 09:02 PM
You asked for proof. My next door neighbour had colon cancer. His levels were sky high.Then he was told about Flaxseed Oil by a naturopath.. He took one teaspoonful a day, mixed in yoghurt. The next time he went to the hospital for a test, the doctor could not believe the change. His levels were so low, so normal. Alfred didn't mention the fact that he had been taking Flaxseed Oil to the doctor, he did however, ask the doctor for the explanation, of how his levels were so low, so normal so very quickly, and the doctor shook his head, and said he couldn't guess, this was surprising indeed, he said.He had never seen this before. |
lizzy
in australia
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Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 | 09:04 PM
This is Lizzy again. I mut add, that luckily, Alfred did have his operation previously to taking the flaxseed Oil. Taking the Oil helped to reduce the levels. If there is cancerthere already, everyone knows, ofcourse, that you do have to have the operation. In every case. Do not gamble. |
Boo
in The Land of the Haggii...
Member
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Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 | 03:22 AM
Sadly, that's not proof, that's an anonymous anecdote. |
lizzy
in australia
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Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 | 08:12 AM
well, since that is a mere anonymous anecdote, I had burnt my hand very badly. I always have a nice big pot of aloe vera at home. I cut off a leaf, dribbled on the juice. The pain receded very quickly, although the nerves in my fingers were still very tender. Within two hours, the nerves had settled, and within three hours, my hand was back to normal. No blisters or discoloration of the skin. And no, this is not an anonymous anecdote, this is a Lizzy anecdote. |
lizzy
in australia
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Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 | 08:18 AM
Captain Al, I totally agree with you there. Fortunately for us, there are more and more people waking up to the power struggle that is going on.
Natural medicine was very fine for all these thousands of years, now are no longer working. Right!
Unfortunately, all the knowledge that mankind had gathered through the millenia, a lot has been lost, as we let it slip away, as we were dazzled by the power of authority.
But we are waking up again! We are starting to identify the power systems that are erected to keep us broke and ignorant. |
Boo
in The Land of the Haggii...
Member
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Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 | 12:21 PM
Lizzy, it's still not proof.
After all, we only have your word for it, and since we only have your word that you're even called Lizzy!
I'm not trying to put you down, just trying to point out the difference between anecdotes and data.
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lizzy
in australia
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Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 | 07:28 PM
This is Lizzy again.
We had to take Albert Einstein's word for everything he had said. After all, most of his theories were in his head, then written down on paper. After all, how could he prove the fact that time moves in a certain way, that the universe expands, contracts, then expands again. Nor he could he prove the fact that energy is malleable, that human contact can alter how atoms move....
Lizzy |
Mark-N-Isa
in Midwest USA
Member
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Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 | 07:47 PM
How could Einstein "prove" these things Lizzy???
How about with Mathematics? Repeatable results? Peer review? Scientific/Mathematic formulas that produced repeatable and predictable results... just to name a few right off the top of my head. No one took his word for anything...
Sounds like you should attend a few more science classes before you go around trying to apply logical thinking... to anything!
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Charybdis
in Hell
Member
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Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 | 07:53 PM
Lizzy, nobody took Einstein's word for anything. In fact, there was much disagreement over his theories. Nobody was confused about what they were because they were properly written out, it's just that some thought he was wrong. However, once experiments and observations were decided on it became possible to gather evidence to support his theories.
Careful measurements of stars during eclipses showed that light does indeed warp around a mass. Other experiments with atomic clocks on extrememly fast moving jets showed that relative time does slow down with acceleration. And atomic weapons show quite devastatingly that mass and energy are the same.
In the end the evidence accumulated supported the majority of his work. Not all - he wasn't perfect by any means - but enough that he's considered one of the greatest scientists ever. |
lizzy
in australia
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Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 | 11:40 PM
I agree with you. You are both right... I admit defeat on that score.
You must also note though, that a lot of laboratories have done extensive studies on plants, and have found, that when there is a chemical imbalance in a body (illness), by adding the the right plant, which has the right chemical balance, can improve the imbalance in the human body, and improve the balance. Yes?
Even here, in Australia, laboritories are snapping up native plants to analyse for chemical constituents.
Unfortunately, our Aboriginese have had knowledge for the last 40,000 years, of different plants and how to use them, that have been ignored by the new colonists, and now a lot of that knowledge is gone. Of course, since Aboriginese didnt have anything written down, and hence,knowledge that was used for the last 40,000 years is not adequate enough. What a pity. |
Accipiter
Member
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Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 | 05:09 PM
Lizzy, you said that "natural medicine was very fine for all these thousands of years, now are no longer working. Right!" That's not quite right. Natural medicines did often work, but not always well. And for a lot of ailments and injuries there simply was no medication. Life expectancies were rather short, infant mortality was high, and people were often diseased. Look at places in the modern world where modern medicine is not readily available; the people there depend almost entirely on traditional medicines, yet very many people die young of diseases that are treatable in more developed areas. The people thousands of years ago would have happily exchanged their condensed urine salves for streptomycin. And would you prefer to be treated with corticosteroids if you had a bad poison ivy rash, or would you rather have to drink a soup made from poison ivy leaves (an old traditional treatment, which often killed the patient)? |
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
Member
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Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 | 05:38 PM
Lizzy,
I wouldn't describe illness as a chemical imbalance. Illness are caused by viruses and bacteria, among other things. A chemical imbalance would cause death I think. "Chemical Imbalance" is jargon used by psuedo-medical practicioners to lend credibility to their snake oil remedies.
On the matter of world-wide conspiracies that keep herbal "cures" secret, I don't think you picked up on the sarcasm in my post. I was not offering that as something I believe. Quite the contrary in fact. I wouldn't say mankind has let any useful knowledge slip away over time. Once again, this is a myth used to shore up psuedo-scientific ideas. People are not waking up to things, they are falling asleep at the wheel. Instead of investigating for themselves things that sound too good to be true, they are taking the easy way out and believing what they want to believe, just because it sounds good. This puts them at the mercy of charlatans who are only out to make a buck. That is one thing that mankind has not let slip away. |
lizzy
in australia
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Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 | 08:43 PM
Never for a moment would I suggest standing still, and not learning anything new,we must always keep striving to learn more about medicine, about everything around us. I would never presume to suggest that only the old ways are best. But to say that only pharmaceuticals can cure is looking at life like a horse with blinkers on. We must keep am open mind about all things.
But for instance the Aboriginal ancients had healing remedies that passed on from generation to generation, and through politics it has wilted. Now, these old wise men who knew so many secrets are gone, and their knowledge is gone, because mo one would listen anymore.
For instance, here is one little tid-bit. When my children were sick,with a very high temprature, I would make a bath, and pour a little vinegar into it. Just a bit. You cannot imagine the imediate lowering of temprature, not because of the warm water, but because the vinegar really helped. Now, instead I go through a chemist shop, and see hundreds of chema=ically based potions for lowering themperature, one more expensive than the next.
I am not saying that they don't work, I am just saying, there are alernatives. |
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