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New doctors to get quack training
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Posted By:
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
Jun 05, 2005
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Junk science is getting out of control. Now some medical schools will require students to take courses in herbal therapy, accupunture, meditation and other forms of alternative "treatment". How do these people keep their jobs?
Quack medical training
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Comments
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Page 2 of 5 pages < 1 2 3 4 > Last › |
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 | 01:04 PM
I think Sharruma's comments were directed at me not Citizen Premier.
Vitamin C is not a herb. It's part of a proper diet, something recommended by mainstream medical science.
Oil of cloves may work for toothaches but I don't know since I've never tried it. I would think there are "medical drugs" that are stronger but if oil of cloves works good enough, go with it.
What's so special about garlic? There is nothing healthy or magical in it that you can't get from many other foods that nature gives us.
If I remember correctly, medical science tells us magnesium is a trace mineral that all humans require. Again, nothing herbal about it.
If you had bothered to read the report that started this thread you would know that these same people who are trying to get herbal medicine training for doctors also think that meditation and prayer belong in the same category. |
helen
in a hurry
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Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 | 02:01 PM
Sorry in advance for the length of this post; I've tried to cut it...
Maegan, it sounds as though we agree after all - I too think the problem is largely one of our (patients') excessive expectations. Of course medicine can't cure everything; no good doctor would claim it can. My worry is that this makes lots of people are susceptible to exaggerated claims made for untested remedies by scammers and the well-meaning ignorant.
Generally, there seems to be a widespread belief that natural = good, and that chemicals = unnatural = bad. If herbs work (and plenty of them do) then that's because of one or more of the chemicals of which they are made. Those chemicals - drugs - will, of course, have side effects (see my earlier post), but since plants contain all sorts of chemicals besides the drug(s) you want, they may have further undesirable effects. In addition, different samples of a herb can contain different doses of the drug you want. This is why it's better to take the purified or synthesized version in a tablet. Obviously, for minor ailments where a cheap plant is available with few side effects, you might as well take it - I use ginger for seasickness myself, but I don't pay for some sort of expensive extract of ginger from a health-food shop when a couple of ginger biscuits or a piece of root will do the trick. Worse, you could quite possibly kill yourself with home-made foxglove tea for chronic heart failure - a prescription with the same active compound in a measured dose is much better!
Sharruma, as you'll see above, I don't deny that (some) herbs work; but those that work can have severe side effects. To answer your other question, yes, you can kill yourself with vitamin A without having to swallow buckets of the stuff. If something is classified as a drug, that's so that the regulatory authorities can make sure it's manufactured and marketed safely. (Yes, I know there are commercial interests as well, fair point but not the *only* reason for the existence of doctors or licensing!)
Vinegar for heartburn - this is interesting, I've not heard that one before. Do you know if anyone has tested it in several people? Have you tried timing your heartburn and seeing whether it goes faster with vinegar than without? You could be on to something useful, though your explanation isn't an explanation. We should test vinegar and, if it works, fine - then it's orthodox medicine.
Garlic for 'cleaning the blood' is another matter. What do you mean by 'cleaning your blood'? How do you know your blood is dirty? What are the symptoms? If, on the other hand, you have high cholesterol and know that there is epidemiological or clinical evidence that garlic lowers it and reduces your risk of cardiovascular events, fine - say so. |
Sharruma
in capable of finishing a coherent
Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 | 06:41 PM
I'm not a herbologist but you'r kidneys are there to clean the blood. Garlic help this process. When I suffered with acne as a teenager I was given garlic to help clean it up. This was before I grew my current suspicion of doctrs, and it was actually a doctor that recommended it.
Apparently you can also use charcoal for bad breath, but I beleive too much charcoal has detrimental effects.
Vitamin C as with all vitamins come from plants, citrus friuts etc. It's not created in a lab as are many drugs it's a natually occuring substance hence it fits in as part of herb lore. It also fits in because the FDA would love to get their hands on it so they can regulate it as they would all natural medicine and have already tried to do just that in the past.
Yes Captain Al my comment were aimed at you. I guess I didn't check that bit properly.
Nope, I didn't read the artical. I'm defending herb lore not what they said in the artical. Anything they said about prayer and meditation in the article I'd probably agree with you about, that sounds like quackery to me.
Magnesium is a naturally occuring mineral, it appears in many plants and meats and chocolate too, it belongs with natural medicine.
To clarify, natural medicine, as I understand it contains all naturally occurring elements of a mineral nature as well as natural plant extracts.
If you want to know if something counts as a natural medicine or not, look at the diet suppliments in any supermarket. Considering how many they must sell, it makes sense that these things are doing something.
(to clarify these things are called diet suppliments and will not have a list of what they do on them because the FDA would pounce on them the first chance they got. Any 'medicine' has to be officially approved by the FDA before it can be sold as such.)
Oh one final comment helen, allow me to explain why vinegar works.
You have dinner, you suffer from heartburn. Heartburn is not caused (in most cases) by too much acid, it's caused because your body hasn't produced enough acid to digest the food.
An antacid pill will remove what acid there is, it makes your body panic, oh no, we have no acid, quick let's pump some out!
Vinegar is acid, it help replenish the lack and so helps to cure the heartburn without sending your body into that panic. It's both better for you and cheaper.
You don't need to take my word for it, next time you have indigestion, heartburn or acid reflex disease, try it.
I say 95% of the time it'll work, I've never known it to fail but I'll keep that 5% in reserve just in case  |
Sharruma
in capable of finishing a coherent
Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 | 06:45 PM
Oh I should point out that vinegar isn't considered orthodox medicine, because first it would cost millions for the FDA to run their normal checks and secondly the price of vinegar would shoot up as if became a drug
Also of course, the indigestion business is big money in the US. If i walk into any supermarket I'll see at least one set of shelves dedicated to heartburn medicines. Imagine how much these companies would lose if the truth about vinegar was in the public domain. |
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 | 07:50 PM
Sharruma says:
"If you want to know if something counts as a natural medicine or not, look at the diet suppliments in any supermarket. Considering how many they must sell, it makes sense that these things are doing something. "
Since when do sales figures count as proof of something working? Yeah, people would have to be really stupid to buy things that don't work! I suppose this means there really are such things as UFOs and alien abductions since so many people believe they are true. And I guess we must accept astrology and speaking to the dead as valid practices, considering how many books they sell about it.
Heartburn is caused by acid in the stomach. How does taking another acid (vinegar)cure it? Should you not take something that is alkaline to counteract it? Isn't that why heartburn products are called "antacids"? |
Sharruma
in capable of finishing a coherent
Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 | 08:14 PM
Read what I said again dude
Heartburn is not caused by too much acid
but by not enough acid. |
Cranky Media Guy
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Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 | 08:20 PM
Charybdis said:
"And Maegan, how do you know that your herbal remedy doesn't cause liver damage? Have there been professional clinical studies to determine this or are you just taking their word for it, because we know that people never lie to make a buck, don't we?"
Couldn't have said it better myself. Too many people seem to operate on the assumption that someone hawking a "natural" remedy is automatically telling the truth about their product.
I also think that a lot of people confuse the pharmaceutical industry with science. I was married to a hospital pharmacy director for 11 years and I've even taken three drug company-paid for trips. Yeah, they throw around a LOT of money to get hospitals to stock their new products and doctors to prescribe them (which is kind of sleazy, I think). That does NOT mean, however, that everything they produce is automatically inferior to something which is allegedly "natural."
Unfortunately, thanks in large part to Senator Orrin Hatch, a lot of what is on the market is NOT scientifically reviewed. All the manufacturer has to do it call it a "food supplement" instead of a drug and they can put it on the market without much, if any, governmental oversight.
And don't even get me started on "homeopathic" stuff! |
Sharruma
in capable of finishing a coherent
Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 | 08:45 PM
CMG makes some good points
The dietry supplements aren't as well regulated so you do have to be careful what you buy. There are too many cases recently of one natural medicine actually being mixed with something else not so good for you.
And I totally agree with homeopathic stuff, though this is because I don't know how or why it works rather than refuse to believe it might work at all.
Oh, the reason you know your natural drug doesn't cause liver damage is because none of it's effects will be listed on the bottle and you'd have to look them up independantly from a source that makes no profit if a particular suppliment is bought or not. This will list all side affects, if any, too. (of course you still have to be careful that you are buying what the label claims it to be) |
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 | 09:17 PM
Sharruma, I did read what you said, dude!
And I think you are wrong. Check your facts. Heartburn is caused by too much acid. |
Sharruma
in capable of finishing a coherent
Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 | 09:30 PM
All I can suggest is you try it.
I can't prove it on paper you'll have to see for yourself.
If I'm wrong you can still take your standard pill for it afterwards. |
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
Member
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Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 | 09:11 AM
I can't try it. I've never had heartburn. |
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
Member
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Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 | 09:12 AM
And I'm not saying it doesn't work. I just said it's caused by too much acid. |
Maegan
in Tampa, FL - USA
Member
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Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 | 11:28 AM
Heartburn: a burning discomfort behind the lower part of the sternum usually related to spasm of the lower end of the esophagus or of the upper part of the stomach. That's how Webster defines it...
Web MD defines it like this.
Anywho...When I take ANYTHING for any symptoms or illness I am experiencing, I research it. If I HAVE something that I feel warrants a medication of some sort, I look into it...
I'm not walking into the healthfood store willy nilly & picking up bottles and swallowing pills or powders. I don't take OTC drugs, or prescribed drugs that way, why would I take herbs that way??
I go to a few different sites to check out herbal & pharmecutical remedies, but I don't know the site names...I've got it saved on my favorites at home... So I check out some different sources, to see what I can use. Just like with prescription medication, I make sure the herbal medications are compatible with one another... |
Sharruma
in capable of finishing a coherent
Member
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Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 | 01:40 PM
I'll admit
Heartburn can be caused by too much acid
That's the five percent allowance I left.
Most of the time it's not enough acid though
which is why vinegar works so well (two to three minutes at most in my experience)
Thats probably a good description Maegan, it tells you what heartburn is without making any potentially erroneous suggestions as to what causes it.
Anyway Capt if you can't check it yourself I'm sure you know someone who can test it for you. |
helen
in anticipation
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Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 | 05:19 PM
Hi, if anyone's still reading this.
Sharruma, your claim about vinegar is really two claims. The first one, the interesting one, is that vinegar can cure 95% of cases of heartburn. You've made this claim based on the observation that if you drink a little vinegar, your heartburn goes away, and you hypothesize that there's a causal connection. This makes me want to test it properly - I mean a double-blind randomized controlled trial (RCT) - but I don't have the resources. Only when we've done that need we bother with your second claim, that heartburn is caused by too much acid. What's your reason for asserting this? You'd make a stronger argument by leaving it out; even if your first claim, based on observation, is true, your second claim doesn't necessarily follow. An example of an equally good, opposing hypothesis would be that a bit more acid triggers the stomach to stop producing acid. Moreover, your hypothesis is contradicted by existing scientific knowledge (evidence from pH-meter studies, etc.)
I think you've done something similar with your claims about garlic. Yes, the kidneys clean the blood of waste products (but not, as far as I know, of cholesterol, which I think is what the scientists are interested in garlic for). Are you combining two ideas without evidence? Because I've never heard of garlic being used to 'help the kidneys', even in end-stage renal failure, where it'd come in handy for people whose blood really *does* need cleaning. (As always, I am ready to learn otherwise from anyone provided you can back claims up with good evidence from rigorous studies.) Acne, according to dermatologists at least, has nothing to do with 'dirty blood'. Again, this alone doesn't mean that garlic does not help acne (although I'm not aware that it does), just that you have combined an observation or belief about an effect with a postulated mechanism for which there seems to be no evidence.
Homeopathy - this has been covered in such detail all over the web that I'll only say that (a) I had an open mind until I looked into it at the promping of a homeopath (the purpose of having an open mind being to close it firmly on something, as somebody - Bertrand Russell? - said) and (b) when I looked into it I found that not one of the many RCTs carried out on homeopathy have shown it to have any effect. |
lizzy
in australia
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Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 | 12:06 AM
Isn't it funny, how herbal medicines found a cure for both Aids and cancer via the use and manipulation of certain vitamins, and was quashed by the medical system? And then, they sent the poor person for months of tests, painful treatments, when the answer was there all along?
And why then, are there natural medicine hospitals popping up all over the world if it doses not work? Hmmm..? |
crankymediaguy
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Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 | 01:51 AM
lizzy said:
"Isn't it funny, how herbal medicines found a cure for both Aids and cancer via the use and manipulation of certain vitamins, and was quashed by the medical system? And then, they sent the poor person for months of tests, painful treatments, when the answer was there all along?"
So, where would a person read the peer-reviewed studies that prove that "alternative" medicine has "cured" AIDS and cancer?
Let's assume for a moment that your assertion is correct. Don't you think that the "medical system" as you call it would either buy up the companies that were making the herbal medicines that cured those deadly diseases and sell them themselves OR simply manufacture their own versions of them? You can't, after all, sell anything to the dead.
"And why then, are there natural medicine hospitals popping up all over the world if it doses not work? Hmmm..?"
Why are "payroll loan" places popping up all over when banks exist? The fact that some people fall for scams in no way proves that the "mainstream" way doesn't work at all.
I think a lot of you proponents of "natural" or "herbal" or "alternative" whatever confuse the fact that mainstream medicine sometimes makes mistakes and can't cure everything with the notion that therefore it is completely disinterested in the health of the public.
There is a tendency to confuse the SCIENCE of medicine with the BIG BUSINESS of medicine. I've mentioned before that I was married to a hospital pharmacy director for 11 years. I've seen what the business side looks like and it isn't always pretty. That, however, should not cause anyone to reject the real SCIENCE that goes into creating medicines.
Lizzy, if you believe that there is an "alternative" treatment that is a sure-fire cure for cancer, please provide the proof of that claim. And just so you know, no, telling us that you know a guy who knows a guy who had cancer but it went away after he ate some tree bark does NOT constitute "proof."
While REAL science has actually cured diseases that ravaged the human race for centuries, "alternative" medicine has yet to produce a single cure for anything. Sorry, but that's the fact. |
Maegan
in Tampa, FL - USA
Member
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Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 | 01:24 PM
I didn't think cancer could be cured. I thought most cancers were genetic. Just like you couldn't cure hair or eye color - you get what you get. I don't really understand cancer that well, though. |
Charybdis
in Hell
Member
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Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 | 05:30 PM
Just because a disease is genetic doesn't mean that it can't be cured. While theoretically, if not practically, it is possible to define hair or eye color or other genetic traits before birth, cancer doesn't seem to be a genetic trait.
Susceptibility to cancer seems to be genetic, but the causes of cancer itself are widespread. Genetic traits can't be ruled out, however. It's just that I don't think it's fully understood what exactly triggers cancers in the first place. |
Sharruma
in capable of finishing a coherent
Member
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Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 | 07:42 PM
Cranky
One simple question - Do you eat? If so why?
I eat because I beleive my body had requirements for certain nutrients that it finds in the food. If I didn't eat I'd starve to death. Yet the arguments I'm hearing from some people would suggest food does nothing for me.
Why then is it so hard to believe that there might be something in various herbs that might also be needed by my body. Herbs that might help to cure me if I'm taken ill.
A lot of illness is caused by an imbalance in the body that herbs can rectify.
I'm not saying that herbs can cure everything, they won't fix a broken leg, though they can help and cannabis, for example, can be used as an anesthetic - oh and guess what it's a plant, if an illegal one
And why is it illegal if it has no effect? |
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