Posted By:
Captain Al
in Alberta, Canada Jun 05, 2005
Junk science is getting out of control. Now some medical schools will require students to take courses in herbal therapy, accupunture, meditation and other forms of alternative "treatment". How do these people keep their jobs? Quack medical training
One person who can't believe this is happening is Stephen Barrett, MD who runs the website Quackwatch.org
He claims a number of the people responsible for this initiative have a financial interest in alternative treatment and that he as well as other skeptical physicians were excluded from the decision making process.
It seems the alternative treatment industry is positioning themselves to scam the public by getting recognition from conventional health care agencies. Barrett also says the health care industry are selling out to the alternatives to get a share of the funding that will result.
Here are two essays on the subject from Barrett's website. Irresponsible "CAM" report Some notes on the Institute of Medicine's panel on "Complementary and Alternative Medicine"
Hey, you can get ancillary cover on your health insurance here to cover acupuncture, massage and all sorts of things so I'm not surprised it's finding it's way into traditional medicine. I mean, doctors have to make a buck somehow right?
Terry Austin
in California
Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 | 10:17 AM
Because alternative medicine saves the insurance companies money.
Indeed. Not providing any real medical care, so that your clients die, is far cheaper for insurance companies that actually providing the services contracted for.
Sharruma
in capable of finishing a coherent Member
Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 | 06:15 PM
Sounds good to me
Doctors might actually start finding out how to cure people instead of the current..
'lets keep people sick because it keeps us in employment' policy
Have you not noticed that virtually every perscription medicine has about a dozen side effects for which you might have to take other medicines
Have you not noticed that the medicine they do offer only cure symtoms rather than the ailment.
I'd go to a real doctor, a herbalist long before I'd visit any of those other quacks thank you.
Sharruma, was it alternative medicine that cured polio? Can alternative medicine keep HIV from turning into AIDS? Herbology (it's a word now, damnit!) is an important part of the pharmaceutical industry, but chewing a leaf isn't necessarily any more healthy than taking a pill; in fact it's probably better to isolate the active ingredient in that leaf and synthesize it, so you don't have to worry about what else is in the leaf.
I agree that there's a lot of things wrong with medicine now, and if it were up to me there would be no 'pharmacuetical industry,' but it's better to trust them than the quacks.
Sharruma
in capable of finishing a coherent Member
Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 | 12:03 AM
I agree CP it is better to take the active part of a leaf and use that
Of course you can't claim it actually does anything becasue then the FDA would want there share
Did you know they tried to make Vitamin C a drug at one point?
Perhaps I am biased, I don't trust doctors
Maegan
in Tampa, FL - USA Member
Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 | 05:45 AM
CP, it seems you'd just rather drug people up than cure them!
I'll admit that herbal cures & remedies aren't for everything...but I can take something that will relieve (not cure) my allergy symptoms that WON'T cause liver damage, or take something that will do the exact same that WILL cause liver damage. If I've got a choice I'd take the herbal remedy. Since neither one will cure me of being allergic to something, but each one will at least keep me from feeling heavy-headed, stuffed up, and itchy...I'm going to take the one that does less damage to my body. It's more difficult for the liver to do it's job on the synthetic pill than on the natural pill. Since I'm gonna need my liver for the rest of my life, I'd like to take it a little easy on it.
I don't see where the problem is here. I'd rather a doctor know the full spectrum of things available...than just the stuff they learned regarding chemicals and pills.
I keep a box of benedryl, but I also have alfalfa tablets & echinacea on hand too.
helen
in hope of rationality
Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 | 08:48 AM
Meagan, Sharruma: I understand that you don't want side effects when you take medication, and if you suspect that the pharmaceutical industry wants to make money I am sure you are right. But you mustn't forget that the body is very complex; because it uses similar biochemical pathways to carry out several tasks, it is almost impossible for a drug that works in one part of the body not to have effects elsewhere (you will have heard a lot about COX-2 inhibitors recently, for example). This means that, if it works on your illness, it will almost certainly have an effect elsewhere in your body, too. And that applies to herbal drugs as well as synthetic ones. Furthermore, herbs contain many active substances, several of which might have unwanted effects (for example, destroying your liver) with no positive effects, so clearly it's better to take a synthetic version of the active substance you want, in a measured dose instead of the varying quantities present in plants.
I'm afraid that if you expect medicines to work perfectly and without side effects, then you have been misled. And if you expect herbal medicines to work without side effects, then I can guess who has misled you - why should you believe the 'natural medicines' industry cares less about profits than the pharmaceutical industry? They're just less well regulated and don't have to tell you about side effects.
To sum up, if you've got a minor ailment and the drug has major side effects, then don't take the drug; if you've got a major illness, like cancer, then for your own sake take the drug and put up with the side effects, because anyone who tells you it can be cured any other way is either ignorant or scamming you.
helen
in business
Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 | 08:59 AM
Oops, sorry for misspelling your name, Maegan. And BTW I don't work in the pharmaceutical industry.
I'm going to have to support helen and CP here. Drugs are drugs, it doesn't matter if they come in a pill or a piece of bark. Using medication is always a balancing act, and sometimes you need another medication to alleviate the affects of the first. But that's not restricted to just the pharmacuetical companies.
And Maegan, how do you know that your herbal remedy doesn't cause liver damage? Have there been professional clinical studies to determine this or are you just taking their word for it, because we know that people never lie to make a buck, don't we?
Sharruma
in capable of finishing a coherent Member
Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 | 01:59 PM
Helen: I've little doubt you're right to some extent that herb can cause side effects. Chapperel for example can make you very sick (its a poisonous plant)
but the side effects caused by herbs are usually mild in comparisson to those a drug might give you. (they'd natural, what side effects do vitamins normally give you? Well anything can be bad if you take too much of it.)
Have a look at something simple, Heartburn. Have a look at the drugs you can get for it and the side effects they cause. Look at how they work by forcing neutralizing your body acids and forcing your body into panic to produce more.
(as for 'Destroying your liver' virtually every heartburn medicine advertised these days seems to have that as a side effect as well as many others)
A much simpler less harmful cure for heartburn is a spoonful of vinegar. Being acid itself it doesn't send your body into panic. I'm not saying vinegar will cure it every time, but 95% of the time definately. Personally I never take anything else.
Meagan: You're right of course, you should never cut off all possibilities. Though doctors and manufactured drugs should be a last resort it's always good to keep them in reserve in case the herbal remedies aren't working.
Allow me to quote a few proverbs from the penguin Dictionary of proverbs - about doctors.
One Doctor makes work for another
The Doctor is often more to be feared than the disease
Physicians kill more than they cure.
A young physicians fattens the churchyard.
If you have a physician for a friend tip your hat and send him to your enemy.
Guess I'm not the only one that distrust's doctors
Of course part of my distrust of the doctor may be that of all the people I've known that have gone to hospital, not one of them lived to talk about it afterwards.
I'm afraid I'm jumping on the herbal/natural rememdy band wagon myself. Probably a result of when a doctor trying to class me an asthmatic when all I was suffering from was a cold. Not to mention that I find that herbal and natural remedies often work a lot better with me than any of the synthetic drugs available.
Sharruma
in capable of finishing a coherent Member
Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 | 12:25 AM
CP If I take the right herbs my appendix won't get inflamed in the first place.
(it hasn't so far.)
Maegan
in Tampa, FL - USA Member
Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 | 03:26 AM
helen, I wasn't suggesting that the herbal remedy world isn't looking for money. I was simply suggesting that running to a doctor at the first twitch isn't really the answer. My mother has worked in hospitals for the last 13 years or so, I've been around a lot of doctors. My feeling is that PATIENTS think that a pill or injection should cure them. So instead of actually listening to their doctors, they're just asking for meds. The doctors have gotten very used to this cycle...and just start prescribing meds when the patient walks in the door.
I have nothing against doctors. I have been very happy with most of mine. Even my OB/GYN...(I say even him, b/c I had quite an issue with the hospital where I delivered, and people tend to blame their doctors for a bad hospital experience. He was fantastic. It was the hospital staff whose neck I wanted to ring.)
When I had heartburn, I took Papaya extract. Worked like a charm. No extra chemicals in that to help it dissolve in my stomach. When I was queasy I chewed on ginger. It burned a little bit, but it worked. Again...no added synthetics in my system that I or my baby had to filter out of our systems.
But when I have a headache? Excedrin. Night time sniffling, sneezing, coughing, achey head? Nyquil. When I had a respitory infection last winter, even my doctor tried out some lesser treatments, b/c he knows that I don't like to bombard my body with chemicals. We tried to let my immune system build up and take over. When it didn't work we went to a synthetic steroid.
I'm not totally against pharmecutical companies, doctors, and hospitals. I'd just like for my doctor to know the difference between echinacea and goldenseal.
I think some people are under the mistaken impression that some of these alternative treatments actually work. Does anybody here really think meditation, prayer or herbs can heal medical conditions? This is the real issue, not whether or not some exotic plant can relieve cold symptoms.
If someone who goes through 8 or 10 years of medical training can't cure some ailment, what the hell makes you think a gypsy pharmacist can?
I distrust doctors as much as the next person, maybe more so, but putting your health in the hands of quacks is insane. Most minor aches, pains and colds go away in a few days. Why do we need to see a doctor or herbalist(?) for every little thing? Be brave, take it like a man!
Sharruma
in capable of finishing a coherent Member
Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 | 09:38 AM
Are you suggesting herbal medicine doesn't work CP?
That if I take vitamin C I'll still come down with Scurvy?
Perhaps oil of cloves isn't a natural ananesthetic after all. (used by those with bad toothache)
Perhaps Garlic won't help clean my blood.
Magnesium isn't an aid for women at certain times of the month.
And whats this about meditation and prayer are you trying to make me into some sort of religious fanatic? I think what you're saying is that you've lost the arguement and you're trying to claim I said things I didn't to make my argument weaker.
CP, seriously I don't care enough about you whether you're into drugs or herbs or both. It doesn't matter to me. All that bothers me is when people who are ignorant of the facts call herbal medicine, quack medicine when the stuff works to a better and heathier extent than your drugs.
