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Another biblical theory…
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Posted By:
Mark-N-Isa
in Midwest USA
Apr 29, 2005
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http://www.theindychannel.com/weather/4429774/detail.html
Entertaining theory, but this guy offers NO proof or even hypothetical means... he just states it and seems to think that the bible should be considered "justification."
It will be interesting to see if he ever tries to prove this theory in some way...
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Comments
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Page 5 of 16 pages ‹ First < 3 4 5 6 7 > Last › |
nicknack
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Posted: Sat May 21, 2005 | 02:13 AM
Funny how both matters, religion and evolution have not been proven 100%. One being called a 'fairy tale' and the other a 'theory'. Yet everyone argues that they are right. There is no point in this disucussion, I have participated in several discussions stretching up to 30 pages and it is all so pointless since no one is 100% any way. Why don't we all wait until we die, yah? Then we know's who right and who's not. Meanwhile, just believe what you believe. I being a stubborn Christian like Eric, I refuse to believe in the theory of evolution. |
Citizen Premier
in spite of public outcry
Member
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Posted: Sat May 21, 2005 | 08:19 PM
Um, the only way to know if there isn't an afterlife is to figure it out right now; because once you die, you don't know anything. Why don't we also stop searching for cures for AIDS or cancer or trying to feed the world, since a benevolent God may or may not watch over us? It's too bad, but religion mixes a lot with politics. |
Eric The Lumberjack
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Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 | 12:07 PM
Well, CP, depending on what is the truth, you may either not know anything upon death, or you might know everything. I'm sure theories exist for any number of points between the two extremes.
I'm all for the hope of seeing God in the end. That's what I believe. I know that if I'm wrong and we end up just rotting in the ground, then it really doesn't matter what I do when I'm alive. I just choose to believe what I do, and I just have faith that I'm right. That's all anyone can do. |
Maegan
in Tampa, FL - USA
Member
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Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 | 12:41 PM
Just a thought...if there's nothing in the end and you just die - and you no longer exist...what's the harm in believing? If you're right, you'll end up the same. As nothing. If you're wrong though...Hm. Not as pleasant to think about. |
Razela
in Chicago, IL
Member
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Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 | 12:55 PM
As I think I mentioned earlier, if there is a God, and he's unhappy with me not believing in him most of my life and doesn't let me into heaven, or wherever I'm suppose to go, just because I didn't believe in him, then he's not a God I want to believe in anyway. If he/she was truly so great, he/she would understand and encourage questioning our lives. God would understand that some people don't believe just because we are using our brains and questioning our environment, and that there is no proof in a God.
Personally, I think if he were so great, he would take unbelievers before believers who only believe in him for the supposed devine rewards. Besides, if I were God, I would just take everyone, I mean, everyone has done good in their lives, just some people make mistakes or have crazy mental issues or what have you.
I think the whole idea of heaven and hell is fundamentally flawed. Even if there is a God, the idea that after death we are judged and either sent to a happy place with clouds and music, or a horrible place with fire and what, is just rediculous. Seems a bit over the top. People are not just good or bad.
So what else would decide which you went to? Does just believing in God get you in heaven, even if you did bad things in your life? Would a philanthropist who spent his/her whole life helping others, but never believed in God get to go to heaven. What about someone who grew up in a place where there were no Christians, and never even had a chance to change religions or what have you. Would that person be punished for being ignorant? A God that would do things like that is no God I'd want to believe in.
If there is a God and he's so wonderful, or whatever, he wouldn't be vain enough to even care if we believed in him or not. |
Charybdis
in Hell
Member
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Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 | 01:21 PM
Maegan, your agument has been touted for centuries. It's still as flawed now as it was then. What should I believe? If I accept your argument (something about gambler's choice or dilemma or something, I don't remember what it's called) then I should believe in EVERYTHING equally. After all, what if it turns out that I created the universe? Shouldn't you worship me as well? Just in case? There is no descrimination - it can be used to justify any belief at all. Even opposites. |
Maegan
in Tampa, FL - USA
Member
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Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 | 01:43 PM
I wasn't using it to debate...Just rhetoric. |
skepticality
Member
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Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 | 02:07 PM
I've just always said that... IF there is a God, he put me here to do whatever it is I'm supposed to do. So, I'm doing it.
If he 'created' me then it's all his fault, and I better go to a good place for doing what he programmed me to do.
If he didn't create me then, at least I had fun on Sundays. |
Eric the Lumberjack
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Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 | 03:46 PM
It's not a simple matter of who's good and who's bad. According to scripture, God only lets those without sin enter heaven. Every single last one of us has sinned. Therefore, no one should be getting into heaven. However, it's stated that God sent his own son Jesus to die as a sacrifice (in the Old Testament, sacrifices were required to erase sin) so that we can be saved. In my bible it says that only those who confess with their mouth and believe with their heart that Jesus is lord will be saved, and only they will enter heaven.
In my faith, you can do whatever good you want and it wont get you anywhere. A murderer who repents will be let into heaven, but a benevolent man who doesn't accept Jesus and denys God will be cast into the flames.
Razela, somehow, that makes no sense to me. If it could be proven to everyone that God exists and I'm right, and the way to get into heaven is as I stated above, then regardless, I'd do whatever it takes to not burn forever. Also, I'm not in this for any reward. There is a reward at the end, (provided I am right, of course), but I have other reasons, too. I believe this to be truth, and I don't want to live a lie. If I were an atheist, then I wouldn't think my life has any meaning (atheists correct me if I'm wrong about you on that). This path tells me that everything I do has meaning. I want to make a difference and live a life I can be proud of. If I just rot in the earth in the end without anything happening, then at least I die with the satisfaction that I am proud of the way I lived.
Charybdis, that is exactly how I feel about that statement. It's pointless, and it can be interpreted many different ways. I mean, if I was wrong and the Muslims are right, then I'm screwed. If I'm wrong and the Mormons are right, then I have another chance after death. It can go many different ways, and I don't think it's a very useful statement, simply because it CAN be used to justify all beliefs, but it still does work sometimes.
And skepticality, that statement is illogical. If you were the creator of the universe, would you put people here with the sole purpose of denying your very existance? |
skepticality
Member
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Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 | 05:05 PM
I never said deny... I just said... I'm doing whatever he made us to do...
Saying that we aren't supposed to do whatever we want to do, is like saying God keeps making bad versions of his machine.
Oh wait, that goes back to that whole 'free will' thing. I love how it always comes down to some great and powerful God, that screws everything up on purpose.
"My kid was born with a defect!" / That's not gods fault
"My wife pulled through her terrible disease" / Oh, that's 'blessings'
Yea, it's illogical, that's my point...
You can't apply logic to the manner in which God operates within the context of the majority of established religions. It doesn't work. So, we have to drive the train back to 'faith-town'. Where logic doesn't exist anyway. |
Citizen Premier
in spite of public outcry
Member
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Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 | 06:30 PM
As an atheist, I still find meaning in my life, helping my friends and family, having fun, learning, exploring nature. Also, there's the joy of knowing that there isn't any belief I can't question; scientists expect the tough questions, while priests and whatnot discourage interrogation (theists, correct me if I'm wrong). |
Razela
in Chicago, IL
Member
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Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 | 08:02 PM
Erica says: "A murderer who repents will be let into heaven, but a benevolent man who doesn't accept Jesus and denys God will be cast into the flames."
Does that not seem unfair to you? It does to me. I'd rather burn for all eternity and know that I lived my life well, then spend my time praying to an unfair and cruel God like that.
Plus, think about the logic of the whole Jesus thing. What did people do before Jesus, just go to hell no matter what? That's a crappy deal. And, if God is so wonderful, why would he make this wonderful place for us to go after we die, but then design us in a way that makes it impossible to get there.
Oh, and second, Erica says, "If I were an atheist, then I wouldn't think my life has any meaning"
You are so wrong in that statement. Just because you find meaning in God doesn't mean that an atheist such as myself can't find meaning in something else. Plus, just because a person doesn't believe in God doesn't mean he/she is spiritual is some way.
I have my own belief set and consider myself a spiritual person, yet it is grounded in life, not in the devine. I don't know what will happen to me after I die, maybe I'll just rot away, or maybe I'll go to heaven, or maybe be reincarnated. Frankly, I don't really care.
I find meaning in my life by the way I react and affect the world. I create music (as you can probably tell by my avater) because I want to be able to move my audiance emotionally. I want them to feel the music and the meaning and think about the way it reflects our world. I also do some dance for the same reasons, and I also sing. I study public administration in college so I can learn how to best serve my community and the people in it, as well as people all over the world. I want to learn how I can use my skills and abilities that I was born with to help others. Is that not meaning? |
Razela
in Chicago, IL
Member
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Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 | 08:04 PM
By the way Eric, thank you for coming into this forum and debating in a respectful manner. Many people (on both sides of the faith argument) use the "I'm right, your wrong" statement and do not even listen to the other side. The only way anyone can learn anything from a debate is to actually debate rather then argue. |
Citizen Premier
in spite of public outcry
Member
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Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 | 08:58 PM
You called him Erica! For shame. |
Citizen Premier
in spite of public outcry
Member
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Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 | 09:04 PM
I have another question about Christianity; why is it that many Christians (including one famous talk show host whose name I can't remember) say that Islam is more widespread? Haven't they seen statistics? Christianity leads with over 2.1 billion members. Is it just the desire (that we all have sometimes) to feel like the righteous oppressed? |
Razela
in Chicago, IL
Member
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Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 | 09:06 PM
OOOOOPS!!! So sorry Eric!!! (You can kick my ass now if you want) I think I'm going to go hide in shame =( |
Eric The Lumberjack
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Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 | 10:02 PM
Yeah, I learned my lesson about the decent debating thing...
Anywho. I never said that what you do isn't meaningful, although I see how that could have been misinterpreted... It just wouldn't be meaningful to me. I grew up with a Christian family (sorta), but I never really became a Christian until I was 17. So, I spent a very long time as an Agnostic. I always felt there was something, I just never really knew what it was, until now (I hope I'm right, and I have faith that I am). As I feel right now, if I found proof that God did not exist and became atheist, I kinda would feel as though I lost something, like meaning or purpose. Does that make more sense?
I have fun with my friends, I help them out. I play in a band. I write music. I want to do a lot of the same things that you all want to do. It's just a little more difficult for me, because I have to be thinking "What would Jesus do?" all the time for everything. And I still mess up. And then I ask for forgiveness. It's the whole thing of forgiveness that makes this worthwhile to me. That no matter how much I mess up, no matter how many people I offend or make angry at me, someone still loves me.
I also get the joy of being able to question any belief, just instead of questioning Christianity I get to question atheists, agnostics, and skeptics.
I don't think it's that unjust to cast the unforgiven away. If you think about it, God made you. You deny His existance. People have told you about God and Jesus, and you still choose to ignore and keep telling others that He doesn't exist. If I was God, that would be ample reason for me. He offered someone forgiveness as a free gift to anyone that asks and accepts Jesus as lord, and he/she refused it and continued to say He didn't exist.
I do think it's kinda unfair to those that never heard about God or Jesus, but that's why we send missionaries all over the world. We try.
Also, faith doesn't have to make sense. I don't even understand it... The Bible describes God in four dimensions, height width depth and breadth. We are three dimensional, so it's hard even for a believer to envision it. It's just that when I pray for something, it usually happens. People born with defects... that's a difficult situation. Many things can happen while a baby is developing. Although I believe God is perfect, no human is. And also, the only people that these people are defective to are us humans, in God's eyes, they're still perfect (perfectly made, that doesn't mean they're perfect people).
We say the Islam is more widespread, and it is. There are more of us Christians right now, but Islam is the fastest growing religion (as of 1999, that is. I don't know if that's true after 9/11). There seem to be Muslims almost everywhere. In the arab nations Christians are often killed (The quran actually says that killing us is a good thing, in fact, killing any non-muslims is a good thing). There were more martyrs for Christianity in the 20th century than all the other previous centuries combined. We don't really say it just to make it look like we're oppressed... we already are farily oppressed. In america, the only thing anyone can tell us is to shut up (Satanists like to curse us and kill us in rituals, but that's quite rare. And then there's the Colombine massacre... but that's another story), but in many other parts of the world, we're killed just for walking into a makeshift church. We have our bibles confiscated when entering some foreign nations. Some people hunt us down and kill us just for the fun of killing a Christian. This stuff really does happen.
And as for calling me Erica, I've certainly been called worse. In fact, some people spell my name Erick, Erik, even Aerick. It doesn't really matter that much to me. |
skepticality
Member
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Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 | 10:21 PM
Also, it depends on how you break down the 'statistic' of Christianity.
If you lump ALL Christians together, and ALL Islamic religions together, I think it's actually pretty close.
The issue that a lot of people have with that number is the wide range of groups that count in either camp.
Statistics are a funny animal, I think 'statistically' when you add up all the 'mainstream' Christian 'organized' followers, with the same types of Islamic followers, Islam is ahead.
Last I saw, the discrepancy was that folks often just claimed 'anyone' that said they were Christian as 'Christian', even though, most of those folks, never go to church or really even close to practice a religion at all.
Not sure that statistic matters much though, from a theology standpoint Christians have far more in common with their Islamic brothers, than their Jewish counterparts...
Far, far more, in true practice. |
Citizen Premier
in spite of public outcry
Member
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Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 | 12:09 AM
http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html
Christianity is listed as a clear majority (regardless of whether they meet your standards of a good Christian). It's a shame Christians are persecuted in any place in the world, but it's true of all religions and atheism.
You say "I do think it's kinda unfair to those that never heard about God or Jesus"--isn't "kinda unfair" too meek when you're talking about people being tortured for all eternity? If I believed that people were going to hell, I would spend all my free time doing everything I could to save my brothers. I don't understand how people can believe in such absolutes and still take their lives lightly.
And why doesn't faith have to make sense? I can "just believe" in anything, the tooth fairy or that the world is made of snow, and that's nothing special. Why is it special when one says "God" or "Jesus?"
You also say you "question atheists, agnostics, and skeptics." Do you mean you never question Christianity?
I'm not trying to question you harshly, but it's hard to talk about someone's most valued belief system in a polite manner. But it seems you agree it's worthy of discussion. |
Razela
in Chicago, IL
Member
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Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 | 01:27 AM
Heh, I can say I sincerely understand what you mean about feeling persecuted and oppressed. I'm Jewish remember?
And, I understand about you finding meaning for your life in religion. People are so different from one another and have different needs. Some people need religion and faith to find meaning in their lives, some need other things instead.
I just don't agree with the whole heaven, hell, God, Jesus thing, but you've heard my whole argument there. Oh, and since I |
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