Posted By:
Lord Lucan
in somewhere strange Mar 31, 2005
At rec.puzzles we have for Paul Sloane's lateral thinking puzzle 13:
The Deadly Party
A man went to a party and drank some of the punch. He then left early. Everyone else at the party who drank the punch subsequently died of poisoning. Why did the man not die?
Paul Sloane's ‘solution’ (revealed later) is (apart from not supported by the puzzle wording) contrived and unsatisfying – or I think so, at least.
My solution/reasoning is:
Firstly, just because everybody who drank the punch subsequently died of poisoning doesn't mean that the punch was poisoned. In fact, the problem doesn’t say that only those who drank the punch died, the best that can be deduced is that some, but not necessarily all, of those who died had drunk the punch.
Secondly, that one person drank the punch and was not poisoned suggests that the punch did not contain poison.
The correct (i.e. my) solution is that the punch was not poisoned and that the other guests were poisoned by eating or drinking something else which was.
Paul Sloane's solution is:
The poison in the punch came from the ice cubes. When the man drank the punch the ice was fully frozen. Gradually it melted, poisoning the punch.
Hmmm… see what I mean by contrived? It’s bit like the denouement in those terrible police and detective dramas on afternoon TV, but in this case without the benefit of a gripping narrative.
The essence of many of these lateral thinking problems is to lay a false trail in order to mislead the unwary solver. In this case it seems that Paul apparently has followed his own false trail. And although he assumes that the poison was in the punch he seems then to miss the more likely possibility that it was the guest who left early who was the murderer and put the poison in the bowl after he had had his drink. (Or maybe the murderer waited until after the early leaver had had his drink before he poisoned the punch to throw suspicion elsewhere – but wait …. how did the murderer know that he would be leaving early?). Once you start along this road there are many possible ‘solutions’.
Of course, what has happened is that the problem has simply been poorly worded and should say something like "Everyone else at the party was poisoned by the punch".
Perhaps I just don’t understand how some these ‘lateral’ puzzles should ‘work’ and it’s my fault because my mind is just too logical? (I do think some of the puzzles are good - numbers 16 and 20, for example).
This is a common problem with puzzles
They are written without thought to close all possible outcomes because it just didn't occur to the original poser to cover all possibilities
As the riddles progress sometimes these holes are found and filled, sometimes not.
I once came up with 4 possible solutions to a riddle, none of which were the sought for answer. Though admittedly on further examination one of my answers didn't really work.
Some people delight in creating new answers for old riddles
(I'm now off to look at these other riddles - I like riddles)
Just answer the one about the 3 guys sharing the $30 hotel room for me... It's been driving me nuts since the 4th grade!
3 guys want to share a hotel room and the costs. The clerk charges them $30 ($10 apiece) and sends them up to their room so they can rest. Later he discovers that he's overcharged them for the room, the correct rate for that room is only $25 per night. He sends the bell hop up to their room with their $5 refund. On the way up to their room the bell hop is wondering how he's supposed to split $5 between 3 different guys. In order to avoid the hassle he pockets $2 of the $5, leaving a $3 refund to split between the 3 friends. He does this and leaves... everyone is happy right? Except for the mathematician... the 3 friends each paid $9 apiece for the room ($10 minus the $1 refund) which makes a total cost of $27 ($9 times 3) for the room. $27 plus the $2 the bell hop kept only equals $29 where'd the missing dollar go? In the mathematicians wallet, that's his cut for making you believe that numbers are perfect...
Hmm, some of these are easy
some they don't give you enough information
The music stopped, she died.- If you don't know it you won't get it because there are more possible solutions to this than meet the eye. Hell she could have had a heart attack whilst playing the piano
Two men went into a restaurant. They both ordered the same dish from the menu. After they tasted it, one of the men went outside the restaurant and shot himself. - A real fountain of information again with many possible answers.
Such as - The waiter brought the man a phone, it was a call from his wife and she was running away with the mail man. True this doesn't fit quite as well as the actual answer, but it does work.
Or - The two men were playing russian roulette and didn't want to make a mess in the restaurant, a silly answer perhaps, but it works with the available information.
Or - The two men belonged to a criminal organisation, one had been fiddling the books and had been discovered but not caught. His friend takes him for a meal to warn and he shoots himself rather than face whatever punishment the gang might come up with.
and so on.
Number 20 is possibly my favorite but only because it's the one I'm often asking
Sharruma
Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 | 02:16 PM
In case MnJ is serious
You're looking at the problem the wrong way
it 3x9 =$27 they paid for the room -$2 the cost of what the bell boy took to make $25 the cost of the room.
If you're trying to make it to $30 you're going the wrong way because that's only what was charged in the begining and has no further relevance in the puzzle
I actually think you're having me on, what with april 1 being tomorrow and everything, but in case you're serious I hope that clears it up for you
No Rod, not really. I just drug that over here from the "Time Travel" thread. It was brought up over there to ask Matzusdog if he thought numbers and mathematics were "perfect". I got no reply from him over there concerning it... it was SO much typing to end up being useless... so I drug it over here just to add a worthless .02 cents into the mix.
Someone has to pick up the slack for Hairy since he's not been seen lately. Are you familiar with him and his postings yet?
Oh, yes. Hairy is a breath of fresh air when people are getting too serious about stupid shit.
Raoul's cool too, but I'd rather see them both than just one... It's more fun that way.
And didn't Raoul say Hairy was supposed to return (by satellite!) on April 1st?
fruitbat
Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 | 02:29 PM
Hmm, I think the secret to the Hotel room riddle is in the Bellhop. The 3 guys didn't actually pay $9 per room, they paid 8.3333333 repeating after the refund, but they didn't know that, because the bellhop took 2 of the 5 dollars before it reached the 3 guys. So from the 3 guys' perspectives, the room actually cost 27 dollars. But to the clerk, each person paid (30-5)/3.. or 8.3333333 repeating. So, had each guy received his proper share of 5 dollars (which, divided by 3 would be roughly 1.67) , you would have 8.33 + 8.33 + 8.33 + 1.67 + 1.67 + 1.67 = 30 So all the numbers really do add up. Anyone else have an explanation?
No Sharruma,
Your going at it too fast and thinking you know the answer when you really don't. The $30 is still relevant to the question because that's how much cash was originally spent and now we're trying to account for... $30 total ($10 from each guys wallet) was spent. $3 return making a total of $27 spent. What part of your reasoning makes you think that you would then subtract the two the bell hop kept to equal $25. $25 isn't what they originally spent. When they first walked into the joint they whipped $30 out of their wallets... account for it. Yes, I understand that there are different ways to look at it and get the correct answer... what you're not getting is the original context in which it was brought up. To show that numbers are "entirely" perfect and that even Mathematics can and does contain flaws. I'm sure you've been over to the TT thread... it was the point that crunching numbers isn't all all-perfect way of judging what's possible or not possible in the universe. When accounting for the entire $30 they removed from their wallets you can get the correct answer if you add it differently... $25 for the room, $3 refunds, and $2 bell hop tip. See... BUT, if you try to get the correct answer using other means (like subraction with muliplying) you won't. You, when trying to account for the entire $30 would still need to ADD the bell-hop tip not subtract. And we don't go from trying to "keep track" of $30 to $25 just because it comfortably fits. It is a genuine example of numbers not always working perfectly as a lot of people think.
OK, imagine that each man paid all the money he had for the hotel room. Thusly, they each had 0 dollars when they were waiting in the room. The clerk had 30 dollars. When he realized he had overcharged, he sent up the 5 dollars. The man bellboy stole 2 dollars and gave the men each a dollar back. The three men's dollars plus the two busboy's dollars plus the 25 clerk's dollars makes 30.
I know there's probably some term for the confused mathmatics here, but that's the best I can explain it. I think the most important thing we can remember about math is that reality defines numbers, not the other way around.
If you were looking into a crystal ball (assuming they worked, or course) and whatever you were seeing was too far away, would you need a microscope or a telescope to see it better?
Ha! Chew on THAT for a while.
Sharruma
Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 | 03:19 PM
Assuming the crystal ball worked, it would be looking at what you wanted to look at.
To see something closer you'd only have to will it towards the object in question
If you can't will it closer then it's probably not working
I think it's already pretty obvious that I had already thought of it that way when I stated... "When accounting for the entire $30 they removed from their wallets you can get the correct answer if you add it differently... $25 for the room, $3 refunds, and $2 bell hop tip." Does 25 + 3 + 2, as I stated before you endowed us with all your wisdom, not equal 30 where you're from as well? YOU, are not getting the point I was trying to make with the question. We all know how much money was actually spent... the point was that equations and numbers can't be used to explain everything, or everything that's possible, because they aren't entirely perfect... nor is our understanding of the science of mathematics complete and total. You get me now... I don't need you to help teach me how to add up $30 dollars... or how to balance my checkbook. Been doing it for over 30 years already. I GET THAT 25 + 3 + 2 = 30 but the point is that if mathematics were perfect then...
25 + 3 + 2 (should) = (10 - 1) X 3 + 2 but it doesn't. 30 doesn't = 29... you get both these possibilities using the same variables and rules applied to their use. You get me now? This isn't about a simple math lesson, it's a bigger debate about whether or not numbers / mathematics are perfect and their uses and applications are entirely known and understood by mankind? Really though... if you have the answers to, for, and about everything... I look forward to reading your book.
Citizen,
Yes I see that point you're making and know of what you mean. That if you look at it correctly you get the correct data. (answer) My point is that if numbers / mathematics were "perfect" then you should be able to get the correct answer no matter your approach... as long as you use the correct data/inputs/figures involved. I know ultimately that 25+3+2 equals the 30 involved, my opinion, is that if mathematics were perfect then you should be able to get the same correct answer of 30 by using other so-called perfect formulas such as 3 X 10 = 30 / 3 = 10 - 1 = 9 X 3 = 27 + 2 = 29.... hell I don't know. No amount of debate on this level though will sell me on believing that the science of mathematics is absolutely perfect OR entirely known and understood by an ignorant species such as ours.
Plus I just love to add a little flame to a conversation... anything to get the action going.
Sharruma
Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 | 03:35 PM
MnJ
If you already knew the answer whats the problem?
30 - 5 = 25
25 + 3 = 28
28 + 2 = 30
or
3 x 9 = 27
27 - 2 = 25
I really don't see why you're having a problem with this!
I'll try to spell it out.
The actual cost of the room is $25
Each person staying pays $9 = $27
The question is where is the missing $2 they should also have been given, not why doesn't it add up to $30.
and by a staggering coincidence 27-2 = 25
PS - Sharruma, If you're going to "tell me how it is" anytime in the near future please read my post's first to make sure you aren't telling me something I've already said...
Like when you told me that last time to look at it like this. If you want to debate / discuss something or even prove me an idiot... at least read what I write first so you don't do something like "tell me to look at it like this" when I just typed THAT EXACT SAME THING five minutes before your post. It detracts from your credibility.
