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Nazi atom bomb
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Posted By:
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
Mar 16, 2005
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A German historian claims the Nazis tested an atomic bomb in the final months of WWII acording to this BBC report. He also claims they had a working atomic reactor. It seems rather incredible we are just hearing about it now. According to Ranier Karlsch it is because documents were classified when the small group of scientists were captured. The same thing happened to German rocket scientists, but we have known all about them for a long time. I think this is just a lame attempt to credit Germany with a scientific first. Doesn't he realize the war is over and his side lost?
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Comments
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Accipiter
Member
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Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 | 05:37 PM
It is possible that the Nazis could have made and employed nuclear weapons, given just a bit more time. There would certainly have been some difficulties, though.
First, they would have required the knowledge necessary to make a nuclear weapon. I don't think that there are many people who would doubt Germany's technical ability to put together a nuclear bomb; when one considers that the Nazis were employing jet aircraft and camera-guided cruise missiles, it's clear that the Germans had great technical knowledge. Whether they would have had the necessary knowledge of nuclear physics, though, is something that is less clear. Heisenberg is generally considered to have been one of the great physicists of the 20th century, but that doesn't automatically mean that he knew how to produce a nuclear weapon.
A second step needed in making a nuclear bomb would be a source of uranium. Uranium is actually one of the more common elements on Earth, but areas where it's concentrated enough to make it possible to mine are less common. Before WWII, uranium wasn't used for much other than as a pigment in the oxide form. There hadn't been much interest in mapping out areas for uranium mining; most of the current major mining areas weren't located until well after the war. The only fairly large source of uranium within the reach of the Nazi-occupied world would have been in the Ukraine, although I'm not sure when the uranium in that area was first located and mined. In any event, the Nazis couldn't have started mining there until around 1942, and their hold on the area was rather abbreviated. Out of the three naturally occurring uranium isotopes (U-238, 235, and 234), only U-235 makes a worthwhile weapon. On average, less that 1% of the uranium in any sample is U-235, so a whole lot of uranium has to be collected before any decent amount of weapons-grade uranium can be extracted. Only about 9/10 of the uranium in a good nuclear weapon needs to be U-235, but even so, could the Nazis have collected and transported enough uranium in the time they had?
A third difficulty would have been in getting the other materials needed and making use of them. There is more needed to make a nuclear weapon than just U-235. There was the deuterium that they needed, which they processed in Norway (and at least one major shipment of which was sunk). Getting enough deuterium for their plans would have been tricky. Also, very large amounts of sulphuric acid and fluorine are needed to extract and refine the uranium. During the last half of the war, Germany's factories were undergoing constant bombing. Sulphuric acid is an essential part of many industrial processes, and would have been in great demand and relatively short supply. Its use would have been severely rationed and watched over. The bombing would also have made it necessary to have the uranium-extracting and -refining plants well out of the way, as would the need to keep secrecy. Sending large amounts of sulphuric acid to some unknown, distant location would not only have hampered other aspects of the war effort, but would likely have attracted somebody's attention. Even so, the Nazis would probably have been willing to sacrifice a small amount of their current production of regular weaponry in favour of the possible production of nuclear weapons in the near future.
So yes, Germany would have had many obstacles to overcome before it could have started using nuclear weapons. But it was still quite possible that they could have done so if the war had continued on just a little longer in Europe. |
Accipiter
Member
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Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 | 05:38 PM
Wow, that was long! |
Captain Al
in Vancouver Island, Canada
Member
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Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 | 11:56 PM
Wow, that was long!
I think we all agree on a lot of points but I've forgotten which ones.
So all those who think the original story behind this thread is false, please raise your hand... |
Accipiter
Member
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Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 | 01:16 AM
Since I haven't read this guy's book, I can't tell how valid his evidence may be. All the same, from what I do know of the times and situations I'd have to vote for false. |
Storm
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Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 | 12:54 PM
Wow,the Nazis tested the nuclear weapon at the time when they were surrounded by the enemies on both fronts.It doesn't make Americans look good.
If the Nazis had used few of those"hybrid tactical nuclear weapons",instead of testing it's power with limited casualties,and killed 100.000 americans,english or russians ,their act would've been considered as a war crime,because they were supposed to be bad guys.And there is no difference between weapons of mass destruction and gas chambers.
Looks to me like whistleblowing.I don't think people from BBC that stupid.
PS.They(Nazis) didn't need mass production,5-10 of those would had done the trick. |
McTodd
Member
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Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 | 05:34 PM
But if Heisenberg 'wasn't all he was cracked up to be' then he did not 'certainly have the knowledge, mental reasoning skills, and even resources to produce at least one working atomic bomb.' And even if Heisenberg did get the theory right and design a workable bomb, it's just too much to expect that Germany had the resources to produce it. And even if they had, how would they have delivered it? They had no heavy bombers, and didn't have command of the air by 1945 anyway, and it's doubtful they could have produced a bomb as light as a ton to fit in a V2 rocket.
And the description of the so-called bomb that's been touted recently is inconsistent. Was it a 'proper' fission weapon, or was it a dirty bomb? |
McTodd
Member
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Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 | 05:44 PM
Bugger, ignore my post above, I was responding to a post from Charybdis on Page 1 without having noticed that there were two more pages of messages! Duh!
Apart from that, I simply think that for an extraordinary claim like Herr Karlsch's requires extraordinary evidence to back it up, and he doesn't seem to have provided any. Articles Herr Karlsch has written himself, and which one would expect to carry the juiciest morsels of his evidence to support them, simply don't deliver.
And in the absence of proof, speculation about Germany's ability to produce a nuclear weapon is just that - speculation. Nobody denies that Germany had some incredible engineers and scientists and was far ahead of the Allies in many areas. But that says nothing about whether they had the right expertise to develop nuclear weapons, though. |
DeadandBuried
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Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 | 12:31 AM
Fuck the nazi bomb!They didn't use it,but Americans did.
http://www.anawa.org.au/weapons/japan.html
Some nerd by name Einstein came up with his fucking "e=mc2" and other motherfuckers took it further to built the BOMB.
The little likeable man was nothing,but an evil genius,who was instrumental in creating the BOMB,when he signed the letter to Roosevelt in 1939,stating that "we must built the BOMB before the Nazis do it and use it against us".Later he condemned it's usage in Japan,but before he died, tried to justified his action,saying,that "may be there is someting good will come out of it".
Crap!
Yes,we found out later,that the Big Bang was the nuclear reaction.
So what! I would prefer not to know all that in exchange for a peace of mind.
We(human beings)are not suppose to have an access to this kind of power,because most of us are nothing,but a bloodthirsty animals,ready to kill each other.What if this power gets into the wrong hands? Then we all be a history. |
DeadAndBuried
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Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 | 01:04 AM
McTood,
"Nobody denies that Germany had some incredible engineers and scientists and was far ahead of the Allies in many areas".
Germany's incredible engineers and scientists(immigrants) had built the Bomb for the USA. |
DeadAndBuried
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Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 | 01:38 AM
Sorry about the prev.com.
Read:McTodd |
McTodd
Member
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Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 | 02:55 PM
Ha ha, no worries about the name, DeadAndBuried!
Indeed, you're correct. But that's part of the point, they went to Britain and the USA, they didn't (sensibly) hang around in Germany or continental Europe.
Of course, if the Nazis hadn't persecuted the Jews, maybe Einstein and Co. would have stayed in Germany. But then, if the Nazis hadn't persecuted the Jews, they wouldn't have been Nazis. |
Scott D.
in Germany
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Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 | 04:28 AM
In response to just the first page of threads that I've read, I would just like to make this comment: Much of this information was never classified. I can even remember watching a documentary as a teenager which dealt exclusively with just how close Germany was to having a Nuclear weapon. The core was completed in the final months of 1944. Historical (unclassified) facts state that had Germany had just 3 more months, they would have been in possession of weapons-grade plutonium. And there is much that is still classified. But then, all of this really is just mute, right? |
David B.
Member
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Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 | 06:09 AM
But then, all of this really is just mute, right?
Do you mean 'moot', or do you just want us to shut up about it?  |
havoc299
in madrid
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Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 | 06:24 PM
I think all of us must believe, in general terms, in the official history. But own history often teaches us that the complete truth is only known 50 or 60 years later. Sometimes the real facts never reaches the dark out. The winners usually write the story with some interested shades...These are the things that must keep us awaken up.
I |
guest
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Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 | 09:27 PM
Has anyone read Joseph P. Farrell's book:
"Reich of the Black Sun" on just this topic?
ISBN 1931882398 from Adventures Unlimited Press 2004
If so, your comments would be appreciated. |
babbage
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 | 07:41 AM
I would not consider the research on nazi-germany nuclear bomb as a hoax. There are numerous eyewitness reports (like ohrdruf) and official reports made by pilots (british, german, russian). Rainer Karlsch, an academic economic historian of a well-established research institute in Berlin, found in russian archives reports from two very big explosions occured in March 1945 around the Area of Thuringia, which were very similiar in descriptions to that of a german pilot who watched a big red mushroomed cloud reaching to 20000 feets high.
And especially the report of some inhabitants of the area Ohrdruf/Thuringia who had to bury about 400 concentration camp prisoners who had to stay at the presumably "nuclear" test site and who got burned completely to black-coal. These events are still many told by the inhabitants of these areas.
As one poster before me already told, there is now some members of physic instituts who are going to examine the radioactive components of different earth samples derived from different deepths. These examinations will last till mid 2006 and will give an explanation if the compared to other areas very high radioactive emission is still nature's origin or caused by a specific explosion in the past. The radioactive emission of this place is the highest of Germany.
Ohrdruf and Thuringia were in East Germany (DDR). The russian occupied these areas and especially Ohrdruf, wich had a big military test site for Nazi Germany and now had been used by the red army as a military station.
More information about the topic can be found in physics world, june 2005, you can access it online. |
Kevin
in Cleveland, OH
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Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 | 06:23 PM
I have been trying to study this topic all day after an incidental mention in an article on alternet.org. It seems to me that if Heisenburg was able to devise how we made the Bomb shortly after notification that it had been dropped on Hiroshima, he wasn't lacking in the ability critics have stated. To me, it seems likely that he undermined the efforts on purpose. I think some of the "spin" at the time was the side effect of the Allied scramble after the war to nab Nazi scientists for their own use. It would have been in America's interest to downplay the nuclear abilities of certain scientists in order to keep the Russians from grabbing them. As others have stated though, this is all just speculation at this point. If we find that the Nazis did detonate a nuclear bomb or even a dirty bomb, we should all consider ourselves lucky that we managed to defeat the Nazis before Hitler's crazy ass could have used those weapons in even more terrifying ways than we did. |
Simon_G
in Wellington, New Zealand
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Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 | 09:05 PM
It |
Simon_G
in Wellington, New Zealand
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Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 | 09:18 PM
If others including Rod wish to read more about Japan |
Simon_G
in Wellington, New Zealand
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Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 | 09:25 PM
Part 3 of 3
For those who stubbornly cling to the idea that Werner heisenberg was the leader of Nazi Germany's nuclear projects they had four rival nuclear projects. Information was not shared and from July 1944 the SS took over the HWA project.
Deputy Fuhrer Martin Bormannn became the leading patron of the HWA project in 1942 when armaments minister Albert speer tried to kill off the A-bomb project. Speer became a patron of the KWG project and the HWA project was largly hidden from Speer by Bormann:
(1) The Kaiser Wilhelm Gesellschaft (KWG) project of Heisenberg to develop fission for nuclear power.
(2) The secretive OKM Naval Weapons Office or Kreigsmarine project under General Admiral Karl Witzell and Konteradmiral Wilhem Rhein (which amongst other things was involved with towed V-2 capsules and planning to power a type XXI u-boat with a nuclear reactor). The science team was led by scientist Prof Walther Bothe. When the OKM nuclear laboratory at Hamburg was destroyed by allied bombing in 1943, efforts were shifted to Koneigsberg on the Baltic.
(3) The plutonium bomb project of Dr Fritz Houtermans (who studied nuclear physics at the Ukraine Physics Insitute in 1934). The plutonium project was least likely to succeed because plutonium is derived by a six step chemical precipitation process from spent nuclear fuel. Since Heisenberg failed to develop the nuclear reactor a plutonium bomb was impossible.
(4) The Heereswaffenamt uranium enrichment project, subsequently taken over by the SS under leadership of Dr Paul Harteck. This HWA project had far superior funding to Heisenberg's project. Allied intelligence and bombings continually pin-pointed enrichment laboratories and bombed them before they came online. Harteck's final laboratory was found under a football stadium in Stadtilm by the ALSOS mission.
(5) Goering's privately funded Reichsforschungsrat-Goering (Physikalische Technishe Reichanstalt [PTR] at Ronneburg) to develop an A-bomb which was headed by Kurt Deibner. Diebner's efforts were later absorbed by the SS project under Paul Harteck. Deibner was also the German Army's chief nuclear physicist. Deibner was a strident campaigner for the A-bomb during 1941.
Simon Gunson
Wellington, New Zealand |
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