Now you can get more energy from a patch! I especially like the way that
they "believe" that it works. It is also based on years of research from
many fields. While the research may be valid, I'm not sure that their
results were intended to be used with a "patent pending blend of water,
oxygen, amino acids and organics applied to a polyester fabric and sealed
within a polymer shell".
CMG:
I commend you on your restraint. You are right in that he did not come off like a flippin' idiot. But I lose patience very quickly when I see stuff like this and people defending it. One look at the Lifewave website shows they are totally out to lunch. They even say they do not know how it 'works'. They just believe it may work a certain way. Did they just discover it by accident in the lab? Found out it had all these amazing properties! That sounds more like 19th century alchemist's logic to me.
By the way, I don't think it would qualify for the JREF prize because it could not be verified. A player's performance is a subjective thing. I'm sure his mother would say he's getting better. But how do you know he wasn't trying as hard before? And in a competitive sport like hockey or football, how do you cancel out the performance of the opposition?
In the 1970s, the coach of the NHL Toronto Maple Leafs, was a believer in pyramid power. He placed small pyramids under the player's bench during games in the belief it would improve the team's performance. The Leafs had not won the league championship since 1967 (and still have not to this day). Needless to say it did not help. If I remember correctly, after a while he gave up on pyramids and tried crystals or something like that. A true professional.
I knew it would last too long. I guess I am done here, a good conversation has turned into name calling and unprofessionalism. Everyone is entiled to their beliefs.
Dan, no one is saying you are not entitled to your beliefs. It's just that your beliefs on this topic seem illogical. In other words, I'm not buying it for a second. It takes more than, "We feel more energetic" to make a case for Lifewave Energy Patches. The scientific principles behind it, if there are any, go against everything we know about the human body. Positive and negative areas? FM modulation to body parts? You may have to fire your team doctor since everything he was taught must be false.
If you come up with any hard data, we'd love to hear it. If any of your players become the next Wayne Gretzky, you may have something. But then how would we know he wouldn't have been a 'great one' without them?
Captain Al, well, I kind of go by Randi's standards. He's said on his site that while we certainly should challenge people's beliefs in the supernatural, etc. we shouldn't be gratuitously rude to them.
I share your exasperation with belief in the ridiculous. It's amazing to me that in an era in which REAL science has made such strides (remember, there are still a few people alive who were born before there were airplanes!) there are millions who unquestioningly trust in utter nonsense.
As for the JREF Prize, while I''m in no position to speak for James Randi, I have directly emailed him in the past to ask whether similar things would qualify for the Prize so that I could inform the supporter they had a bundle waiting for them.
As for testing the patches it occurs to me that it could be done using identical-looking "placebos" made of a completely different material. If the people given the "placebos" also reported pain relief, etc. it would tend to indicate that the "real" ones were also placebos.
The JREF Challenges are always conducted using protocols agreed to by the claimant(s) so if they said that, yes, patches made of a different material shouldn't work, if in fact they did, that would be pretty damning.
I'm not holding my breath for the people selling these things to agree to anything like that, though.
Captain Al
in Alberta, Canada Member
Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2005 | 06:51 AM
CMG, I guess I was a little hard on Dan. He was not defending the product, just relaying his observations as a professional who actually tried it. I should have accepted his input and waited for him to come to some conclusion. So if you are still reading Dan, I apologize and hope you will continue to participate.
When challenging people on things like this I sometimes show no respect, like Randi suggests, because skeptics often do not get the same in return (I know, a poor excuse). In this week's commentary, Randi relates an email exchange from someone who was applying for the paranormal challenge. The claim was absolutely ludicrous and this person just could not understand what he had to do to prove it. It's quite funny to read. Randi included it to show just what they go through sometimes. I bet there are days when he wishes he never thought of the JREF Paranormal Challenge. James Randi Weekly Commentary
I am just trying to get to the bottom line do they work or not. I know the science would say know, but how could so many people of bought into athe placebo test, plus thier web site http://lifewave.com/studies.asp sites studies of that show positive results.
"I am just trying to get to the bottom line do they work or not. I know the science would say know, but how could so many people of bought into athe placebo test..."
How can so many people believe in astrology?
How can so many people believe in feng shui?
How can so many people believe in homeopathy?
How can so many people believe in dowsing?
How can so many people believe in transubstantiation?
Get the point? None of these things can be proven to work. They all defy logic and the known laws of physics, yet people believe in them because they WANT to.
I can come up with "test results" that will "prove" that I can fly. Would you believe them if I showed them to you? Just because something is written down, that doesn't mean that it isn't a lie.
How were the "tests" conducted? Who conducted them? Was there a control group? Were there any tests actually conducted at all?
smegster
Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2005 | 08:07 PM
WEll I have been hit up by one of the pilots that swear by these things. He gave me a set to try out as I do the red Eye... [low seniority you know]but my gut says to run from any MLM! I'll let your know the effects/affects.
"In this week's commentary, Randi relates an email exchange from someone who was applying for the paranormal challenge. The claim was absolutely ludicrous and this person just could not understand what he had to do to prove it. It's quite funny to read. Randi included it to show just what they go through sometimes. I bet there are days when he wishes he never thought of the JREF Paranormal Challenge."
I've had the same thought when I read about some of the inanity Randi has to put up with. As he says though, "This is the job we've chosen."
I'm a huge Randi fan. He and I share a mutual friend, Alan Abel, and one of my points of pride is that I've corresponded a few times with Randi via email. I actually get excited about Fridays because I know he'll have a new entry on his website. Indirectly through Randi, we got my daughter's high school to stop some homeopathic nonsense her science teacher was spewing.
I'm hoping to get back to Florida one of these days so I can stop by the JREF and meet him. I hate to say it but Randi isn't a young man (not that I am these days either) and I wouldn't want to miss the opportunity to talk to him in person. Maybe I should just save up some money and go to next year's Amazing Meeting.
Captain Al
in Alberta, Canada Member
Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2005 | 06:57 AM
CMG:
I also look forward to Fridays so I can read the latest Randi commentary. I agree he would be a fasinating person to meet and the thought of going to next year's Amazing Meeting crossed my mind too. As a bonus, we would get to meet Phil Plait, the Bad Astronomer, and others from CISCOP (The Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal).
I understand how you all can be so skeptical. But have you ever thought that maybe they really do work. Because I believe that they do. Also, even if they don't work, and they are just a placebo, what's the harm? If it make people feel better who are you to trash it? And about the Sean May comment: He was wearing the patches and they do mention that he did. I'm not trying to be harsh. I just think that if you don't like them fine, but don't critize those who belive in them and who are physically and mentally better because of them. On their webisite they have a 10 page document on the science of these patches and how they work. http://www.lifewave.com/studies_ds_intro.asp
Take a look.
"I understand how you all can be so skeptical. But have you ever thought that maybe they really do work. Because I believe that they do."
Are you trying to say that your BELIEF that they work somehow constitutes proof that they DO? Here's how things work: When someone asserts that something that violates the known laws of physics works, the burden of proof is on THEM, not the people who say, "I don't believe it." We skeptics do not have to prove anything; the people who are selling these things have to prove that they DO work. Period.
"Also, even if they don't work, and they are just a placebo, what's the harm? If it make people feel better who are you to trash it?"
Well, if they are placebos (as I and others believe) then they are selling something under false pretenses. After all, do they ADMIT that they are placebos anywhere in their sales literature or website?
What's the harm in that? Well, has it occurred to you that there may be people who have legitimate medical problems who are foregoing REAL medical care in lieu of using these things?
Tell you what: You must have SOME kind of medical problem, even if it's minor, right? Maybe your ears ring sometimes or you have excessive was in them.
It's your Lucky Day. I happen to have a secret process by which I can CURE whatever your problem is, large or small. All you have to do is send me some money. $50. will do nicely.
Suppose I said that and some people actually did send me money. You realize that I have no such ability to cure anything, right? Well, if they believe that they feel better after sending the money to me, what's the harm?
"I just think that if you don't like them fine, but don't critize those who belive in them and who are physically and mentally better because of them."
What evidence do you have that anyone is actually better because of using them (other than the placebo effect, that is)?
Nonsense, no matter how extensive, is still nonsense. I refer you to something called the Urantia Project. Look for it via Google. Enjoy.
LB
in Houston, Texas
Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 | 09:02 AM
Anyone can be a skeptic. It's easy. Did any of the skeptics try the Lifewave Energy Patches? I'm not going to debate the studies or even the testimonials. They can be manufactured. I'm just asking what gives you the right to call it a hoax if you have not tried them? Seems from what I've read here, those who have tried them say they work. Who are you to say they don't?
Everyone's entitled to their opinion, that's all it is.
Captain Al
in Alberta, Canada Member
Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 | 09:54 AM
LB,
Yes, skepticism is easy. You should give it a try. I'm willing to bet none of the skeptics have tried them. I haven't. The reason is, anyone with even a shred of scientific knowledge can see from Livewave's website that they are full of shit. None of their explanations make any sense what so ever. It seems a lot of people are easily fooled by Star Trek-ese terminology. In any case these studies and testimonials are from Livewave. It's exactly what I would expect them to say given they have a financial interest in their product. The real test is to see if any other organization can duplicate their alledged results. The fact that no one seems in a hurry to do this does not mean the jury is still out. Science does not have the time to investigate every wacko claim that comes along. So it's only natural that the ones this far off the mark of known science are ignored. And don't expect Livewave to lead the charge for further study. They don't want to be exposed for what they really are.
Easily fooled maybe, but they work. I have tried them, I have given them to peole to try, and the results are there. I do not know how they work. They just do.
Dan
Captain Al
in Alberta, Canada Member
Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 | 11:02 AM
Dan,
I know you and your hockey team have tried them but you all heard the claims before your tried them. That could have set everyone up for the placebo effect.
May I suggest a simple experiment: If you get any new players on your team, don't tell them about Livewave Energy Patches. Wait a short time until you know their capabilities. Then sneak into the dressing room before a game or practice and put the patches in their equipment. Then you can rate their performance before and after use.
Another experiment: Make up some fake patches for the players that do know about them. Give them out before a game or practice (of course, without telling them they are fake). Then ask them afterwards if they still feel they helped.
These experiments are unscientific but could give some meaningful data.
"Easily fooled maybe, but they work. I have tried them, I have given them to peole to try, and the results are there. I do not know how they work. They just do."
Dan, *I* know how they "work." They "work" in exactly the same way that telling your players that you've found an amazing new pain-relieving product and then duct-taping Roosevelt dimes to their foreheads (without letting them see that they were just dimes) would "work."
Repeat after me: "Placebo effect! Placebo effect!"
Does something have to enter the body to have an effect or change a behavior? Maybe, but how do you explain the phenominom "spelling" behind womens menstral cycles aligning when two or more live in the same house? If 3 women move in together with different cycles, with in a few months they align and happen at the same time.
All I am saying is maybe we do not undestand everything? Just maybe.
Captain Al
in Alberta, Canada Member
Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 | 06:53 AM
Dan,
You are absolutely right. We do not understand everything. But we do understand a lot. In fact we understand more than enough to prejudge this product. Otherwise we have to accept that everything we have learned about the human body up to this point is false. What does your team doctor say about Livewave Energy Patches?
