Now you can get more energy from a patch! I especially like the way that
they "believe" that it works. It is also based on years of research from
many fields. While the research may be valid, I'm not sure that their
results were intended to be used with a "patent pending blend of water,
oxygen, amino acids and organics applied to a polyester fabric and sealed
within a polymer shell".
He isn't even a scientist, just someone who has found a way to make a living out of lecturing.
With respect, could we not also state that David Schmidt isn't even a scientist but has found a way to make a living out of selling placebo glucose and glycerin patches on the internet?
I am not even saying that you SHOULD try the patches. What I am saying is that you should not be afraid to try the patches as no-one has presented any negative effects.
Again, with respect, would it not be rather difficult to come up with negative effects for a placebo? Users are generally primed to expect positive results, especially for $100.
I am also a little confused as to when the "fear factor" entered the equation.
LifeWavers have traditionally used the line "what are you scared of? Why don't you try the patches?"
I don't actually feel any fear about the patches. I'm not afraid to try them, but to do so would, for me, be on the same plane of worth as putting cow manure on my bald spot to make my hair grow.
*
Able to fly
Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 | 09:09 PM
EDHUK said:
"With respect, could we not also state that David Schmidt isn't even a scientist but has found a way to make a living out of selling placebo glucose and glycerin patches on the internet?"
Well that is why I made the comment, because earlier on this forum, and more than once, it WAS stated that David Schmidt is not a scientist.
I look forward to reading the links you have provided in the earlier post and thank you.
Captain Al
in Alberta, Canada Member
Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 | 09:10 PM
Able to fly, you said:
"It is amazing how different it all appears when the full text of the correspondence is presented, which now confirms my suspicions that JREF is a website not to be trusted...etc,etc,etc
"
Of all the wavers that have come on here to try and convice everyone they really believe this shit works, you are the least believable. Your acting is really bad. Give it up.
human being
Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 | 09:47 PM
Captain Al-...
GOOD ONE!(obviously sarcastic)
Actually I think Able to Fly makes a very good arguement, she also has seen right through Mr. James Randi's Challenge.
You must find that everything she is saying is the truth, or else you wouldn't be trying to shut her out.
Acting? what is she acting? her belief?
Even if it was a placebo effect she still got what she wanted out of them right?
how about YOU give it up pal.
Able to fly
Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 | 10:05 PM
Captain Al you are not even worthy of a response, however I will give you this post to let you know that I have read yours. Do you make a habit of disrupting forums with personal attacks? What do you actually gain from it?
Able to fly
Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 | 10:43 PM
Hi EDHUK
They were very interesting articles.
However it got me thinking....
First, why were there any positive results in the experiments done by Benveniste? This wasn't really explained. More important, why were there positive results from the plain water. You can't explain this experiment with a placebo effect so why were there any positive results at all?
Second, in one of the articles it said "This so-called placebo effect occurs because receptors in the brain, called mu-opioid receptors, are activated. And this leads the brain to produce opiate-like substances." If that is the case then doesn't that suggest that the use of a placebo as a control in an experiment is flawed?
I'm beginning to think that it might be wise for governments to organise the production of lots of lovely coloured placebo tablets to administer as cures for illnesses that they haven't yet been able to control. Could come in handy with the threat of a Bird Flu. It can't hurt and at least some people may survive as a result of the placebo who otherwise might have died. Rumour is that scientists have proven that the current drug being stockpiled for bird flu may not work. Why don't they just keep their mouths shut and in the event of a breakout administer the drug anyway? (In case you are wondering I am being serious. Sometimes ignorance is bliss.)
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 | 11:02 PM
Able to fly said:
"The reasons Dr. Haltiwanger gave for being reluctant to proceed were:
1. He had "a problem with Mr. Randi who is a self confessed conman"
Randi has referred to himself as a "charlatan" in reference to his career as a magician and escape artist. I'm not aware of any time he has called himself a "con man."
"2. "The rules are that he (Mr. Randi) is the only person who will decide if the study is positive"
Absolutely not true. If you actually READ the rules, you'll see that Randi will NOT take part in the testing except as an observer. As I've mentioned before, the challenger has to agree in advance to the conditions. Therefore, what constitutes passing the testing is understood by the challenger before the testing starts.
"3. "Mr. Randi also destroyed the career and reputation of one of France's top scientists"
Who? When? How?
"4. He descibed it as "a media event where the rules are/will be rigged against us. This basically is a setup."
Bullshit. This is a way to duck the challenge. As I've now said at least twice, the challenger has to agree in advance to the conditions of the challenge. How can the rules be "rigged against you" if you agree to them in advance?
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 | 11:07 PM
Able to fly said:
"I ask all those who read this forum to please not let JREF and its supporters narrow your world by filling it with fear. If life were not full of risks and dangers it would be absolutely boring. To close your mind to all that is possible by requiring proof before acceptance would be an unfortunate state."
Oh, absolutely! Drink some battery acid if someone says it might cure whatever ails you. Hell, maybe it'll work! Who knows, right? Proof? Ha! I laugh in the face of proof.
Buy some tiny little adhesive plastic patches for an exhorbitant price. Who knows, maybe they really CAN violate everything we know about physics and biology. Don't listen to those stupid "scientists" and their ridiculous "facts." They're just trying to dampen your spirit of adventure. It's the people with no ability to explain how their "inventions" work who are on your side.
Oh, and under no circumstances, point out that Able to fly's argument assumes that there is nothing between total gullibility and abject fear of the unknown. Stick your finger in that light socket if you think it'll cure your cold!
Cranky Media Guy
Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 | 11:12 PM
Cranky Media Girl (!) said:
"i suggest that you try them before you make claims. if they don't work, at least you can have some kind of experience like Able to Fly had, and make a claim by your experience. Able to Fly can say that they gave her energy. but skeptics can't say that it doesn't, unless they have actually tried them for themselves."
If you go back and read some of the earlier postings, you'll see that I actually received a few patches and gave them to my wife to test. She experienced NO effect at all.
As for the notion that a person can only comment on that which they have tried themselves, I suggest you test that "theory" of gravity. Go to the roof and jump off. Maybe you'll float. Since you've never tried it, you can't say you won't, right?
"Cranky I love your site. How often do you post new things?"
Actually, I haven't put anything new on it in a while. I got sort of burned out when I was updating it several times a week, I guess. Have you seen some of the video on the site? How about the thing with Andy Kaufman? That's my favorite.
"Cranky media girl...."
So, you're like Supergirl to my Superman? Cool.
Able to fly
Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 | 11:47 PM
Cranky Media Guy
You conveniently ignore the fact that I was refering to items for which "no-one has presented any negative effects".
It may surprise you how intelligent human beings can be, and often they are quite able to determine, without help from you or Randi, what is sensible behaviour and what is just too dangerous.
You mentioned in earlier posts the Catholic Church and the problems you had accepting it. How is what you are doing here any different to what a priest does when he tells the congregation that they must live by a set of values determined by the church and they should live in fear of disappointing God. You talk of the Challenge as though it were a test set by a God. Randi is not a God. Just because he says that something doesn't exist unless you can scientifically prove it does, does not mean that is the case. In fact MOST of society does not agree.
People in all parts of the world believe in Gods and energy that they can not prove exists. They are happy to accept because they are satisfied with the results. If believing in a God gives them hope when all seems hopeless, a common interest that they can celebrate together and a set of moral standards to live by, then who are we to complain. Provided man is harming no-one with their practices and beliefs then why do they need to prove anything.
Remember it is not the Lifewavers who are asking for proof that the patches work .... it is the sceptics. Why do those who believe need to prove anything to you or JREF? It isn't like anyone is forcing you to buy them.
I don't appreciate when bible pushers knock on my door and tell me I need to read the bible in order to be "SAVED". Could you also please stop trying to Save the Lifewavers from being unscientific if they clearly state they don't care.
Our friend ABLE TO FLY does not appear to be able to participate in a professional dialogue...
Here is the e-mail I wrote on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 10:20 PM on behalf of the WWSN to address Dr. Haltiwanger's concerns regarding James Randi and the $1,000,000 challenge that David Schmidt, President and founder of Lifewave, originally accepted, and later chickened out of.
___________________________
I would like to address some of Dr. Haltiwanger's legitimate concerns as expressed in his e-mail copied below.
While I do not have any association with the JREF, I would genuinely like to see Lifewave apply to participate in the challenge and want tO help answer questions and arbitrate any disputes as an independent third party, if I can. Dr. Haltiwanger wrote:
"I have a problem with Mr. Randi who is a self confessed conman."
I have done some searching on both the Internet and on the JREF web site and wasn't able to find any references to James Randi being a "self confessed conman". But I am not interested in defending Mr. Randi. Regarding the rules for the challenge, Dr. Haltiwanger stated:
"The rules are that he (Mr. Randi) is the only person who will decide if the study is positive. So far he has proven that homeopathy does not work despite thousands of scientific articles, hundreds of years of clinical experience and millions of positive patient responses. Mr. Randi also destroyed the career and reputation of one of France's top scientists. I advise that LifeWave lawyers and everyone else read the fine print before we subject the company to a media event where the rules are/will be rigged against us. This basically is a setup. Mr. Burtis has nothing to lose. Mr. Randi's challenge is for paranormal activity. LifeWave is not making any paranormal claims. I have known about Mr. Randi for 15+ years. The attorneys need to pick this apart."
I have to agree that at first glance it DOES look like a set-up - but it's a set-up to expose charlatans and fakes. Randi did not "prove" that homeopathy does not work - the applicant who wanted to present homeopathy as an effective treatment mode failed to prove that it DOES work. This is an important difference.
Obviously, Lifewave is not making any paranormal claims. However, the definition of "paranormal" on their FAQ web page includes:
"departing from what is usual or normal especially so as to appear to transcend the laws of nature"
The next question and answer also includes:
The following things are paranormal by definition:
Homeopathy. Chiropractic Healing (beyond back/joint problems). Therapeutic Touch (aka "TT"). Psychokinesis (aka "PK"). Reflexology. Acupuncture. Applied Kinesiology (aka "AK"). The Existence of Auras.
The fundamental descriptions of the science and theories about and effects of using the Lifewave patch certainly appear to "transcend the laws of nature". And they are predicated on traditional Chinese medicine, acupuncture, meridians, energy fields, kinesiology and more. Yet David Schmidt and others have claimed time and again that Lifewave CAN prove results using generally accepted and recognized measuring equipment, according to contemporary scientific research standards.
The rest of your e-mail was nothing more than a copy & paste from the "Alternative Science" web site (not exactly research), but I will address some of those issues, as well.
The rest of your e-mail was nothing more than a copy & paste from the "Alternative Science" web site (not exactly research), but I will address some of those issues, as well.
Do a google search written exactly this way: "james randi" million see the third listing
Most people have heard of the challenge by James Randi offering $1 million to anyone who can demonstrate psychic powers.
On the face of it, Randi's challenge must be a good thing mustn't it? There's a million dollars just sitting there waiting to be picked up, and all anyone has to do to win it is perform under controlled conditions the kind of claim we read about every day in the newspapers -- spoon bending, mind-reading, remote viewing.
Yes, this IS a good thing. But the money is not just sitting there waiting to be picked up - you must prove by agreed upon standards that you CAN bend a spoon with your mind. And so far, that has not been done. It is a good thing if it does indeed educate the public about these people and their claims and reveals them to be frauds and charlatans.
So doesn’t the mere fact that no-one has won Randi's challenge prove that such things are impossible? As usual in the murky world of "skepticism", things are not exactly what they appear to be.
Again, Randi's challenge does not PROVE anything. The requirement to win the $1,000,000 is to PROVE you CAN do what you claim. I happen to have a personal belief system that DOES allow for many things that would be classified as paranormal - I just can't prove any of it.
A quick glance through the provisions seems to show an eminently reasonable and fair challenge. But now go back and look again a little more carefully, this time with the kind of critical eye that Randi brings to exposing cheats and frauds. What you find are some ambiguities that are likely to make any serious claimant uneasy to say the least.
The first such ambiguity is contained in the preamble where it says, "Since claims vary greatly in character and scope, specific rules must be formulated for each applicant."
This means, quite reasonably, that the rules for any particular attempt cannot be finalised until a claimant steps forward and announces what he or she is going to do -- bend spoons, read minds or walk on fire. But it also means that Randi will fomulate the rules for each individual attempt at his challenge on an ad hoc basis. And, of course, the claimant has to agree to these ad hoc rules. If he or she does not agree, the contest will not take place at all.
The second ambiguity is in Clause 4, which says that "Tests will be designed in such a way that no "judging" procedure is required. Results will be self-evident to any observer, in accordance with the rules which will be agreed upon by all parties in advance of any formal testing procedure taking place."
This means, quite reasonably, that there will be no interminable arguments by 'experts' over statistical measurements. Either the spoon bends or it doesn't: either the claimant reads minds or he doesn't. The written rules, agreed up front, will decide.
True, but terribly slanted. If Randi decides that a Lifewave patch should have to grow hair on a bald head within 10 minutes to win, I would declare his challenge itself a scam and say so on the WWSN. Lifewave has never made such a claim. But if both parties agree that there is a way to quantify a 40% increase in energy, strength and endurance according to established and accepted medical standards, then the results WILL be self-evident. There is no "judging" procedure and Randi's opinions are meaningless - all that matters are the recorded results.
But it also means that there will be no objective, independent judging or adjudication, by scientific criteria, carried out by qualified professional scientists. Randi alone will say whether the terms of the challenge have been met -- whether the metal was bent psychically, or the electronic instrument deflected by mental power, or the remote image was correctly reproduced. In the event that the claimant insists the written terms have been met, but Randi disagrees, then it will be Randi's decision that prevails.
Not only will Randi be the sole judge of whether the claimant is successful, but even if a claimant appeals on scientific grounds that he has met the agreed terms of the challenge, Randi will be the sole arbiter of any appeal as well. Randi says there will be "no judging". In reality, he is both judge and jury -- not only of the claimant's cause but of his own cause as well.
The objective result and the scientific criteria for the Lifewave patch are the physical mechanical or electrical readings displayed on the agreed upon measuring instruments of choice. There is no need to involve any third party arbiter or the opinions of Randi or anyone else.
With these two major ambiguities in the rules it would not be surprising if Randi never found a serious claimant to accept his challenge. Any potential claimant who reads the rules carefully will be concerned about two things.
First that the terms enable Randi to draw up specific rules that are unwinnable -- and hence that no claimant would agree to -- and then enable him to claim that "no-one has won the prize".
This is just nonsense. Obviously, if Lifewave does not agree to the conditions for the test, there will be no test, nor should there be. And those conditions should be made very public. Randi must have some concern for his credibility, as well. Besides, you may be able to set-up the actual testing at a third-party university or research center:
You should expect a lot of (written) communication between yourself and the JREF. You should also expect to do a bit of traveling for the actual test, unless you happen to live in an area with an established skeptical group or expert, or in close proximity to a University that might agree to assist both yourself and the JREF in testing your claim.
Randi's objectivity is not the issue - obviously he has a point of view he believes strongly in and uses this challenge to buttress his established point of view. That is no different than the bias that Lifewave would have going in from the opposite point of view. The real "challenge" is to set-up and agree to a testing regimen that
can work outside of those two points of view. This should be relatively easy in the case of Lifewave; they are claiming changes in body function, metabolism, and energy consumption and strength. These are all measurable quantities. No mind tricks or ghosts are involved. Just demonstrate that the patches do as they claim.
Second there is Randi's own objectivity. His position can be understood from his own writings such as this.
"The scientific community, too, must bear the blame. When a Mississippi inventor obtained the signatures of some thirty Ph.D.'s (most of them physicists) on a document attesting that he had discovered a genuine "free-energy" machine (essentially a perpetual motion device), and when the U.S. Patent office issued a patent in 1979 to another inventor of a "permanent magnet motor" that required no power input, there was little reaction from the scientific community. The "cold fusion" farce should have been tossed onto the trash heap long ago, but justifiable fear of legal actions by offended supporters has stifled opponents." [Click here for the real scientific facts].
"These absurd claims, along with the claims of the dowsers, the homeopaths, the colored-light quacks and the psychic spoon-benders, can be directly, definitively, and economically tested and then disposed of if they fail the tests."
It doesn't seem to have occurred to Randi that the thirty Ph.D.'s who attested to the new machine might know a little more about physics than he does.
This last sentence is easy to respond to - apparently Randi DOES know more than the thirty Ph.D.'s since the aforementioned "free-energy" machine has still NOT been produced. The thirty physicists were fooled - Randi was not.
Given uninformed and prejudiced views such as these, the concern will be that Randi, as sole judge of success, will never accept that paranormal phenomena have been demonstrated because his position is that he knows on a priori grounds that the paranormal is impossible and hence whatever the claimant has demonstrated must be merely an unexplained trick of some kind.
I put these ambiguities in the rules to James Randi. He dismissed them, saying only that I should "read the rules", and suggesting that I am a "nitpicker" and "pedant".
Randi is a non-scientist who has announced that -- by some undisclosed but non-scientific means -- he knows that such anomalous claims are farcical and 'absurd', and should be 'tossed on the trash heap.'
If Randi's objective is to unfairly set-up every applicant to fail using arbitrary rules and personal opinion as his guide, then the JREF is a fraud and should be exposed. The challenge asks for one simple thing - the truth.
"Your claim casts you in the role of the defendent, and the only thing the JREF asks of you in defending your claim, is to demonstrate it. No theories, no stories, no anecdotal evidence, no photographs, no tape recordings; just a simple demonstration. Nothing more is required. The Challenge rules may seem complicated upon first glance, but they are not. You have a paranormal claim? Great! Demonstrate it successfully, and the Million Dollar Prize is yours. It's really that simple. "
Certainly Lifewave risks little by entering the application process and attempting to negotiate the rules of the game and the requirements to establish proof that the patches actually work. Dropping out before even applying will tell volumes about the company, the product and the people promoting it.
If Lifewave patches really work - demonstrate it, away from neighborhood friendly colleges and company doctors. This should be a relatively easy task to accomplish.
If Lifewave patches really work, that is.
Robert Burtis
The WorldWide Scam Network
Captain Al
in Alberta, Canada Member
Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 | 06:39 AM
"Actually I think Able to Fly makes a very good arguement, she also has seen right through Mr. James Randi's Challenge"
Seen right through it? She hasn't even read it. If she had, she would know the $1,000,000 Challenge is based on sound scientific principles. Real science is designed to ensure techno mumbo-jumbo like Lifewave's is shown for what is really is. A scam.
Able to fly:
At least you read one of my posts. The acting I was referring to is you trying to make us think you are being objective about this. You have already made up your mind without demanding the slightest bit of evidence. In fact you think the skeptics are the ones who have something to prove. In science, things are not innocent until proven guilty. Without even considering the Lifewave's background (David Schmidt's lack of scientific training, no patent, no research facility, etc.) you are defending a fraud. What do you have to gain by this?
The JREF $1,000,000 Paranromal Challenge is an internationally recognized and respected institution. Claimants such as Lifewave and psychic Sylvia Browne have no choice but to make false accusations about it and Mr. Randi because there is no way they can prove what they claim. If they could, they would have done it already. Any attempt by the JREF to weasle out of paying would be grounds for a lawsuit. And even if the JREF did avoid paying, there would still be the international publicity of winning the Challenge. That would be worth far more than $1,000,000. The fact they refuse to try says it all.
EDHUK Member
Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 | 08:12 AM
BBC Horizon Program from the UK.
Here is the link again to the Horizon program involving James Randi. You will notice that Horizon chose to test homeopathy NOT James Randi. The Horizon people then assembled their team and invited Mr. Randi to be involved (knowing that he would bring the element of the Million Dollar open challenge into the program to further enhance it's viewer appeal).
"The Randi challenge doesn't only apply to homeopathy, any paranormal effect would qualify. It started in 1964 when, during a heated radio debate, a parapsychologist challenged Randi to put his money where his mouth is. Randi replied by offering $10,000 of his own money and the Paranormal Challenge was born." (Horizon)
The reason I have given the link is for readers in the US to see that not only was the particular claim about homeopathy being tested but James Randi was under the watchful eye of the Horizon program staff as well. This was NOT a one sided deal.
In the UK (as well as worldwide) Horizon is a well respected BBC television series that has covered many fascinating subjects over the years. When I lived in the UK it was one of my favorite shows.
You will notice that HORIZON conducted the experiment under clearly defined guidelines. James Randi was merely a bystander who "sweated it out" wondering if, at last, he was about to see the challenge money awarded to the contestant.
There are links at the top of the page to the right of James Randi's picture. These links give thorough details of what took place.
The one detail that I take from the program is that James Randi is not saying to anyone "Your claim about (insert claim) is definitely FALSE".
He IS saying "Prove to independant people by mutually agreed rules that what you claim to happen, really happens. If you demonstrate that your claim actually happens, exists, works etc., you will will receive the check for One Million Dollars."
Please take time to read the links on the programme website. It makes fascinating reading.
Cheers.
*
EDHUK Member
Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 | 08:24 AM
CMG "3. "Mr. Randi also destroyed the career and reputation of one of France's top scientists"
"Jacques Benveniste published a controversial paper on homeopathy in Nature in 1988. He implied that water had properties that meant that it 'remembered' what chemicals it had been in contact with. This results of this paper have since been called into question.
Following this incident, Benveniste lost his funding from the French government. However, he has continued his research with a small team and still stands by his original results.
His new research takes the concept of the memory of water a step further. He now claims to be able to record a signal stored in the water and turn it into a computer file, which can be emailed around the world. This emailed file can be played back into a sample of pure water, which then takes on the properties of the original substance.
These claims have met with even greater scepticism than his original results and have earned him an unprecedented second IgNobel prize."
I'm not sure how James Randi was able to "destroy" this man's career and reputation. Given his claims, does he (did he ever) have a reputation?
?
Able to fly
Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 | 08:28 AM
WWSN1 said:
"Our friend ABLE TO FLY does not appear to be able to participate in a professional dialogue..."
I'm sorry, I didn't realise this was a professional forum. Maybe I was confused by comments like yours that suggest that it if someone decides not to participate in the JREF Challenge they have "chickened out". Or was that comment being used in a professional manner.
Since you seem to have a relationship of a sort with Randi, would you mind asking him for an example of the criteria that he would set if Lifewave were to accept the challenge.
What would Lifewave have to demonstrate and how in order to win the challenge?
What would be used as a control? Would they need to produce a placebo patch or would JREF prefer to provide their own? Alternatively if an independent body were to produce the control patch, how would it be produced and using what materials? Also at whose expense?
What equipment would be used in both the preliminary test and in the formal test and who could provide it? (Costs involved would be handy)
Could he please provide some examples of institutions that would be acceptable to Randi for both the preliminary test and the formal test to take place?
Taking into consideration all of the financial commitment involved, would $1,000,000 adequately compensate? Remember David Schmidt and Dr Haltiwanger are busy people with conferences to attend. Time away from their business could mean lost business. Every aspect needs to be considered. $1,000,000 will not go far.
Since you are going to accuse Lifewave of being chicken, how about finding out for us exactly what was to be involved in the challenge that they backed away from.
EDHUK Member
Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 | 08:49 AM
Able to fly
You certainly have a great sense of humor!
You want James Randi to pay people to apply for the Million bucks, is that right?
By the way, what is you involvement with LifeWave?
