Posted By:
Lord Lucan
in somewhere strange Jan 12, 2005
Think and Reason is offering $1,000,000 if you can prove that God exists. There are conditions attached. But they do say: "All you have to do is prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that God exists. It is really that easy!"
Is there really this money sitting waiting?
Supposing I said I was God - and prove I exist (should be easy) - is the money mine?
”Getting back to the original comment, Akabilk said atheism is a belief system just like religion (emphasis mine). I say it isn't.”
You’re entitled to your opinion. Mine is that for some people atheism clearly is their religion, and they are as dogmatic and proselytising about it as any Baptist minister. I notice a lot of Christians disagree about whether other Christians are really Christian, and argue that their view of Christianity is exclusively the right one; I also notice a lot of atheists do the same. So that’s another point of similarity.
Atheism is clearly a religion in the sense of “a set of strongly-held beliefs, values, and attitudes that somebody lives by”, or occasionally “an object, practice, cause, or activity that somebody is completely devoted to or obsessed by”, for some people it is also a religion in the sense of “an institutionalized or personal system of beliefs and practices relating to the divine”. But I do not believe it is a religion in the common parlance of an institutionalised and inflexible system of beliefs demanded of or espoused by individuals claiming to follow it. There’s no Atheist Church to excommunicate me for saying something against their doctrine.
“Akabilk said there is proof humans are "wired with an innate belief in a God in one form or another". I say they are not (and I noticed David didn't ask for a citation for Akabilk's statement).”
Because I already know some (Hood, Hamer, Newberg, Aquili, etc.), I would also dispute many of their conclusions. Absence of evidence not being evidence of absence, however, I do not consider the converse position proved. In fact, the only published evidence (even if disputed) is against your position.
“The religious have been making up stories about gods for thousands of years but until the question of religion's validity is settled, common sense dictates we stick with known entities and not invoke unproven new ones (Occam's Razor).”
Why is Ockham’s razor ‘common sense’? Why is a purely ‘common sense’ view even desirable? Why should we not multiply entities beyond necessity if it might allow us to arrive at a true conclusion that would otherwise be unreachable? How do we know what is a necessary amount of complexity before we have completely answered the question?
“Akabilk said atheists need to provide proof there is no god. I say they don't. The burden of proof lies solely with those who make the claim.”
You do not get to decide where the burden of proof lies for anyone but yourself. To assume that your opinion of where the burden of proof lies should be everyone’s is presumptuous. If you are going to claim that it should be then you will have to prove it.
David B. Member
Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 | 02:44 AM
"Logic and reason are the enemies of religion. No one knew this better than the 16th century theologian Martin Luther."
Many other theologians did (and do) embrace reason, so to quote your own argument, "Who cares about the ones that didn't?"
David B. Member
Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 | 03:11 AM
Akabilk wrote: "I didn't say "We know cats can be dead or alive" [thanks for the obvious]. Your circling the problem it presents."
It depends on your interpretation of Quantum Theory. In the many-worlds model, for instance, there is a live cat and a dead cat in mutually inaccessible universes. Assuming you are perfectly isolated from the cat, there remains one 'you', but when you open the box you split into two 'you's, dechoherent with each other and entangled with the particular live/dead cat you see in the box.
In fact that is a gross oversimplification. There are vastly more than two paths that can be taken by the experiment, so in fact a practically infinite number of cats and universes would result, fairly equally distributed between 'live-cat' and 'dead-cat'.
Of course, not all interpretations are that simple...
samba
Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 | 10:39 AM
"...common sense dictates..."
Common sense doesn't exist,invoking common sense is an appeal to authority to lend weight to one's argument,but citing a non-existent authority is another logical fallacy.
Appeal to common sense is another way of saying 'What's obvious to me should be obvious to everyone'
If common sense did exist,I doubt it would dictate.It wouldn't need to.
David B. Member
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 | 04:24 AM
Actually, samba, it's an 'appeal to the majority', also called an argumentum ad populum or, ironically, an 'appeal to belief', perhaps best paraphrased as "The many believe it, hence it is so.".
David B. Member
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 | 04:46 AM
Personally, I base my atheism on a principle of sufficiency not unlike Ockham's. As a (former) scientist, I am used to working within the framework of methodological naturalism, which - in its broadest sense - assumes that all the effects in whatever you are studying are amenable to study.
Hence whatever your experiment, you assume that the effects in operation follow strict laws, even if they are stochastic ones. If they didn't, then studying it becomes pointless. In fact, that these laws can be suspended by some higher being becomes irrelevant (unless you can positively determine that it is happening in your experiment).
But methodological naturalism (the assumption that there are no supernatural effects at work in one specific case) is not philosophical naturalism (the assumption that there are no supernatural effects), and I don’t presume to extend my assumption as to what effects I see around me to apply to the universe at large.
I do not need to believe in gods to provide me with an explanation for anything I wish explained or meaning to anything I wish to understand the purpose of. I can accept that some things are unknown, and some unknowable, and not feel as though there must or should be a supernatural explanation.
Hence I reject the concept of gods because it has (for me) no utility, not because it has no validity.
David B. Member
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 | 04:48 AM
Incidentally, I can think of no greater 'violation' of Ockham's razor that the many-worlds interpretation of QM. I mean, if anyone but a physicist had said, "Okay, to understand this you need to first assume there are an infinite number of whole universes..."?!
David B. Member
Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 | 05:33 PM
But let's for a moment go back to Captain Al's simile, which boils down to:
"Atheism is a belief system like not collecting stamps is a hobby."
The clear implication is that since not collecting stamps isn't a recognisable hobby, atheism isn't a recognisable belief system. But is that true? Apart from being an appeal to ridicule, clearly it is not, as can be seen by simple a transformation.
"An atheist does not have a belief system like someone who does not collect stamps does not have a hobby."
The same relationships are present, but now the converse implication seems as ridiculous as the former one. The only possible conclusion is that "atheism is a belief system" is not like "not collecting stamps is a hobby". The analogy is invalid, and the epigram is worthless.
Annie
in ??
Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 | 06:00 AM
Do You Believe This???
A girl went to her friends house and she ended up staying longer than
planned, and had to walk home alone. She wasn't afraid because it was a
small COMMUNITY and she lived only a few blocks away.
As she walked along under the bike trail Diane asked,
'God to keep her safe from harm and danger'.
When she reached the alley, which was a shortcut to her house,
she decided to take it. However, halfway down the alley she
noticed a man standing at the end as though he were waiting for her.
She became uneasy and began to pray, asking for 'God's protection'.
Instantly a comforting feeling of quietness and security
wrapped around her,
she felt as though someone was walking with her.
When she reached the end of the alley, she walked
right past the man and arrived home safely.
T he following day, she read in the newspaper that
a young girl had been raped,
in the same alley just twenty minutes after she had been there.
Feeling overwhelmed by this tragedy and the fact
that it could have been her, she began to weep.
Thanking the Lord for her safety and to help this young woman,
she decided to go to the police station.
She felt she could recognize the man, so she told them her story.
The police asked her if she would be willing to look at
a lineup to see if she could identify him.
She agreed and immediately pointed out the man
she had seen in the alley the night before.
When the man was told he had been identified,
he immediately broke down and confessed.
The officer thanked Diane for her bravery and
asked if there was anything they could do for her.
She asked if they would ask the man one question.
Diane was curious as to why he had not attacked her.
When the policeman a sked him, he answered,
'Because she wasn't alone'.
She had two tall men walking on either side of her.'
Amazingly, whether you believe or not, you're not alone.
(people) will not stand up for 'God'.......
PS: God is always there in your heart and loves you no matter what
'If you deny me in front of your friends,
I shall deny you in front of my Father'
'STAND UP FOR HIM'
'93% of people wont pass this on.... Will you be one of them???'
Annie
in ??
Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 | 06:05 AM
GOD
IF SOMEONE HAD A GUN HELD IN FRONT OF YOUR FACE AND ASKED YOU IF YOU BELIEVED IN GOD, WHAT WOULD YOU DO? SAY NO AND FEEL ASHAMED THE REST OF YOUR LIFE? OR SAY YES, I DO, AND DIE STANDING UP FOR GOD? IF YOU'D SAY NO, THEN DELETE THIS E-MAIL. IF YOU WOULD SAY YES, AND STAND UP FOR JESUS CHRIST, PLEASE READ THIS AND PASS ON.
Note: This is a true article that was printed in a southern newspaper less then a year ago
TAKE A DEEP BREATH BEFORE READING THIS
There was an atheist couple who had a child. The couple never told their daughter anything about the Lord. One night when the little girl was 5 years old, the parents fought with each other and the Dad shot the Mom, right in front of the child. Then, the dad shot himself! The little girl watched it all. She then was sent to a foster home. The foster mother was a Christian and took the child to church. On the first day of Sunday School, the foster mother told the teacher that the girl had never heard of Jesus, and to have patience with her. The teacher held up a picture of Jesus and said, "Does anyone know who this is?" The little girl said, "I do, that's the man who was holding me the night my parents died."
If you believe this little girl is telling the truth that even though she had never heard of Jesus, he still held her the night her parents died, then you will forward this to as many people as you can.
Or you can delete it as if it never touched your heart.
Funny, isn't it?
Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell.
Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says.
Funny how everyone wants to go to heaven provided they do not have to believe, think, say, or do anything the Bible says. (Or is it scary?)
Funny how someone can say "I believe in God" but still follow Satan (who, by the way, also "believes" in God).
Funny how you can send a thousand 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire, but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing.
Funny how the lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene pass freely through cyberspace, but the public discussion of Jesus is suppressed in the school and workplace.
Funny how someone can be so fired up for Christ on Sunday, but be an invisible Christian the rest of the week. Not be able to forgive and forget!!! (Are you laughing?)
Funny how when you go to forward this message, you will not send it to many on your address list because you're not sure what they believe, or what they will think of you for sending it to them.
Funny how I can be more worried about what other people think of me than what God thinks of me. (Are you thinking?)
Pass this on only if you mean it.
Yes, I do Love God
Annie
in ??
Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 | 06:19 AM
Oh yes...
and all you who dont beleive that god exists ill pray for you! ( yes I know that youre busiy laughing and you think that ist stupid to pray) but you know god loves you SO much!! I know youve heard alot of people say that but its true.. Just look around you ... look at a tree... mankind cant make something as little as a tree... what about a Flower and sand can we just go poof and ther will be Trees and Flowers and Animals? We as humans will never be able to understand how these things are possinble only god can ... an for those of you who beleive in scientists I found a little text on the innternet it would be great if Youd have aread through it :
were looking into the trajectories of known asteroids and meteors so we wouldn't send astronauts and satellites up only to have them bump into something. Satellite orbits have to be laid out in terms of where the heavenly bodies will be so that the whole thing won't become a head-on traffic collision." As they ran the calculations of the planets' positions back and forth over the centuries, "the computer stopped and put up a red flag. ... They called in the service department to check it out". When the technicians asked what the problem was, the operators replied "Well, the computer show's there's a day missing somewhere in elapsed time." After rechecking everything, the scientists "scratched their Educated Idiot Boxes."
Finally a religious member of the team suggested the answer might lie in the events recorded in the Book of Joshua. With some difficulty he persuaded the others to check out the possibility. When they did, they "found the explanation was close, but not close enough. The elapsed time in Joshua's day was only 23 hours and 20 minutes, not a whole day." Then the religious member recalled that in the Second Book of Kings, God makes the Sun go backwards ten degrees as a sign to King Hezekiah. "There was the whole twenty-four hours, the missing day that the space scientists had to make allowance for in the logbook."
I know most of you wont beleive this but... I hope you do !! God bless
Annie
in ??
Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 | 06:23 AM
So you didnt beleive what I wrote and you checked it up on the internet? well you know I cant force anyone to beleive what they cant see and stuff but I hope for your saje that you do... I totally agree with Timmo from england
The Truth:
Except for the reference to the astronauts, this version of 'the Missing Day' story has been around for nearly 30 years.
Harold Hill was a real person and he was the president of the Curtis Engine Company in Baltimore, Maryland.
He had converted to Christianity as an adult and became a popular speaker among Christian groups, because he was a successful businessman, claimed to be a consultant to NASA, and did presentations on science and the Bible.
One of his most popular presentations was the story of the Missing Day.
Harold Hill apparently told the story without much notice until October 1969, when a columnist for a small American newspaper was told about one of his speeches and was given some notes about the Missing Day.
She was so intrigued, that she wrote it up and it was published.
The columnist's name was Mary Kathryn Bryan and her column appeared in the Spencer Evening World in Spencer, Indiana.
According to the newspaper, the results of that particular column were 'simply unbelievable'.
They started receiving requests from all over the world for reprints of the article, and finally stopped counting when the number of inquiries passed 1,500.
The total number of cards, letters and telephone calls is now in the thousands.
From that article, the Missing Day story found its way into untold numbers of magazines, newspapers, gospel tracts, books and now emails.
Harold Hill himself included it in a Christian book which he wrote. The story has several problems, however.
One problem is that apart from Harold Hill, there is no known source for the NASA story.
For many years, whenever anyone wrote to him about it, he sent a form letter which said he had misplaced the source of the information, but would send everybody a copy when he found it.
The source never materialized. In his subsequent book, Hill dismissed all skepticism about the story and said that no substantiation was needed.
His attitude was that if people believed it and it drew them to spiritual things, it was justified.
Another problem is that NASA has denied that Harold Hill was ever one of its consultants.
James S. Lacy, from the Office of Public Relations for NASA, wrote in a letter to a journalist that the only trace they could find of a Harold Hill having any connection with NASA was a person who was involved in contracting for the operations and maintenance of some diesel engine operations.
Further, according to a letter I have from the NASA Public Affairs office in Washington, 'There is no truth to the recurring story that NASA uncovered a lost day in the movement of the Earth.'
It is interesting to note that an attempt to explain Joshua's long day from a scientific standpoint was published many years before Harold Hill's NASA story. In the 1930s, Dr Harry Rimmer wrote a book called 'The Harmony of Science and Scripture', in which he drew from an 1890 book by Yale professor C.A. Totten.
Using popular biblical chronologies of the time, Totten concluded that the world was created 4,000 years before the birth of Christ, on Sunday, September 22, 4000BC. However, he said that the calendar calculations showed that September 22 was actually a Monday, and not a Sunday, and that the error was probably because of Joshua's missing day.
Totten also makes reference to the Hezekiah story in 2 Kings and argues that this accounts for another missing 20 minutes or so. Totten's calculations sound suspiciously familiar to the NASA story. The bottom line seems to be that there is a lot still missing about 'the Missing Day'.
Captain Al
in Alberta, Canada Member
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 | 09:23 AM
Annie in ?? (La La Land) said:
Do You Believe This???
No.
How do you know the raped girl did not ask for god's protection? If the rapist could see two tall men why couldn't the unharmed girl see them? This story is total bullshit just like your religion. If god is so loving why does he allow so much tragedy, even to believers? If you believe the newspapers you quote so much, why do we constantly read about deaths and injuries at church events? Of course the reason is this god only exists in your mind.
Here's a way you can convince us though. Go to the local zoo and walk into a lion's cage, then a tiger's cage and then a gorilla's cage while asking for your god's protection. That's a good test of your faith. I'm sure we will read the results in the paper.
IF SOMEONE HAD A GUN HELD IN FRONT OF YOUR FACE AND ASKED YOU IF YOU BELIEVED IN GOD, WHAT WOULD YOU DO? SAY NO AND FEEL ASHAMED THE REST OF YOUR LIFE? OR SAY YES, I DO, AND DIE STANDING UP FOR GOD? IF YOU'D SAY NO, THEN DELETE THIS E-MAIL. IF YOU WOULD SAY YES, AND STAND UP FOR JESUS CHRIST, PLEASE READ THIS AND PASS ON.
I like how you assume the person with the gun would shoot you for believing. Maybe they intend to shoot you if you don't believe.
Note: This is a true article that was printed in a southern newspaper less then a year ago
Please give a link to this article so we can check it out. Don't just cut and paste some story that makes you feel good and expect us to take it as fact.
Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell.
You may want to believe otherwise but there has never been a better time in history than today. Look at all the luxuries and labor saving devices we have. Until relatively recently there was no law and order. The world has always been a dangerous place. Don't forget, we compete for food and resources just like all the other species in the animal kingdom.
Funny how someone can say "I believe in God" but still follow Satan (who, by the way, also "believes" in God).
If they really believed in a god, why would they risk angering him by "following Satan"? But a bigger question is why would an all-powerful god who creates whole universes, create another entity that is equally power to himself? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense, does it?
were looking into the trajectories of known asteroids and meteors so we wouldn't send astronauts and satellites up only to have them bump into something. Satellite orbits have to be laid out in terms of where the heavenly bodies will be so that the whole thing won't become a head-on traffic collision.
Do you know even the most basic things about science and technology? The closest heavenly body is the moon which is a quarter of a million miles away. We don't have to worry about satellites or astronauts bumping into it. If anything we track heavenly bodies so we can "bump" into them. That's important if we intentionally send spacecraft there.
and all you who dont beleive that god exists ill pray for you!
Please don't waste your time. I can take care of myself. If you have a direct line to god, please pray for world peace and an end to birth defects, tsunamis, earthquakes, floods and cancer. Come to think of it, why haven't you done this already? You must be one cold, callous bitch to allow this suffering to go on when you could just put in a simple request to stop it. Don't worry we won't hold it against you since your god is only imaginary and praying doesn't accomplish anything.
'STAND UP FOR HIM'
'93% of people wont pass this on.... Will you be one of them???'
What god? The Catholic God, Hindu God, Buddhist God or the Mormon God? The only one that qualifies for consideration is the Catholic God.
Captain Al
in Alberta, Canada Member
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 | 01:26 PM
Mark,
Why does the Catholic god deserve any more consideration than the others? They are all equal. Equally fake, that is.
Carter
Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 | 08:49 PM
Captian Al said,
"They are all equal. Equally fake, that is."
CORRECTION. Except for the Olympian Gods. They are definitely not fake. No way, No how! hah!
Private
in USA
Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 | 04:29 PM
I am trying to get a response from someone about the reward for the existence of God.
Dasheng
Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 | 03:02 PM
I think the reward for the existence of God is eternal paradise if you happened to believe in him, eternal torment if you did not.
Hector L. Colon
in Florida
Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 | 09:13 AM
You need proof that their is a GOD, well I'm not sure if you will ever believe in my GOD, but I hope some day you will come to your senses. In the meantime just look in your wallet and you'll find your god is real enough. Repent! For the Kingdom of GOD is at hand!
Won it All
Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 | 11:12 AM
I was sent here by the Lord, and will like to recieve a cheque.
