Theo van Gogh was a dutch director/writer who said what he wanted whenever he wanted to say it.
He was a critic of our multi-culture society.
He made a movie "Submission" (SEE IT, you can download it on eDonkey, KaaZaa) together with Ayaan Hirshi Ali (an ex-muslim) about the abuse of women in the name of the quran.
Today november 2, 2004 he was murdered.
By a muslim.
Apperently you're not allowed to tell your opinion anymore.
And you are worried about being investigated by the NSA, CIA or FBI?????
I agree, Paul, it is a sign. It's a sign that if Mr. Van Gogh spoke out against Christian practices, he might be killed by a Christian. Don't suggest that Muslims are more prone to violence than other cultures. Extremists and fundamentalists of all religions are dangerous, not just Muslims. I live in the US, where we claim free speach also, and many have gotten a bullet in the back for their troubles, and not by Muslims. Some by Christian people who claimed to be doing the work of God. It's a wacky world, and I salute Mr. Van Gogh for his outspoken ways, but let's not characterize Muslims as predators on the prowl. An unfortunate, tragic loss. My sympathies.
Paul
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 | 11:44 AM
That's my point.
If he spoke out against christians and was killed by a christian.
SAME THING.
It shouldn't happen!!
Religion will destroy this world.
Lothar Ignatius
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 | 12:12 PM
While I agree that this sort of thing should never happen. And while I believe that our differences in religion seem to be causing enormous amounts of undue suffering, I can really see how you make the leap to comparing it with people "worried" about the "NSA, CIA or FBI."
Isn't the FBI currently run by a fundamentalist Christian? (And didn't he cover up the statue of Justice based on his religious beliefs?"
Paul
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 | 12:15 PM
Lothar, that leap goes the LJ thread.
It's about people giving their opion and being investigated by government.
Paul
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 | 12:18 PM
opion?????
How did THAT get there
opinion
(Alex: if you're converting this into a true message board: we need an edit option )
You can actually edit posts if you hit the preview button first.
When the message board add-on comes out for the software that I use to run the main weblog, then I'm going to fully upgrade this to a real message board. The software company says it'll be out sometime soon, but they're not giving an exact date.
Paul
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 | 12:41 PM
English is not my first lingo so sometimes I notice these errors later (but I hate them).
Any thoughts on the subjects Alex.
(you can decline: no problem)
Things like this should never happen. But it's when the government itself tries to stop people from voicing their opinion that you really need to worry. In other words, a random religiously-inspired homicide doesn't scare me anywhere near as much as an institutional effort to suppress free speech would.
So I'm not sure it's a sign of anything more than the existence of hatred and intolerance in the world... which has always been the case.
Paul
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 | 01:37 PM
Lothar made me think (for once) so I'd like to add this:
I'm an atheist and I didn't like Theo van Gogh very much.
It's just that you can't speak out anymore. Our Theo van Gogh (AND Pim Fortuyn) is your Martin Luther King, your JFK.
"Stick your neck out and we'll get you."
That's where we (the dutch) are going now.
Paul
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 | 02:22 PM
Oh come on Alex.
Those things don't start at government level.
They are encouraged by groups of "rebels" and when all hell breaks out, the "rebels" take over and deny they ever started anything.
Maegan
Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 | 12:09 PM
If everyone would worry about their own business, regardless of religious/non-religious association, we wouldn't have this problem. Lots of people have spoken out against my own religious affiliation, but I just ignore them, because I know that according to what I believe...I am right. It sounds a little self-righteous, but I can only be judged by my God, or other righteous people of my own Faith. In a place where I am around people who do not share my views, I don't talk about them unless someone else brings it up to me. I simply act the way my God says I should act & hope my actions show that we're not zealots, crazy, or a cult.
Matt
Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 | 08:53 AM
I don't think it's the true believers who are a danger. By that I mean the ones who try to focus primarily on obeying everything their religion calls for. That generally means a lot of effort dealing with their own moral shortcomings and are largely circumscribed by rules against murder, deception, and other things most organized religions tend to be against. They have their own morality to worry about first and foremost. When this sort becomes an extremist, you wind up with monks or Amish, not terrorists. Worst these ones are likely to do is preach to everyone and tell unbelievers they'll be facing a bad afterlife that these people don't believe in anyway.
No, it's the partial believers who are dangerous. They're the ones who get obsessed with one particular area of their religion and make it the key while ignoring any other inconvenient commands that get in the way of carrying out that theme, or pick a cause which may or may not come from their religion and take religion primarily as a means to support it. They would rather think they're doing the will of God by murdering an enemy of their faith than contemplate that God already told them his will is "Thou Shalt Not Murder."
It's very sad that Theo van Gogh was murderd for voicing his opinion, and sadder that this sort of thing probably isn't going to go away. It's in human nature, I think.
Maegan
Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 | 10:36 AM
Inhuman nature.
Paul
Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 | 05:49 PM
Thank you for all you opinions.
But this has started something in little Holland....as I predicted.
Ayaan Hirshi Ali and another right wing politician have gone into hiding. 7 fundementalist muslims have been arrested and charged for the murder and/or conspiracy.
As a result mosques and a muslim school have been targeted for torching and even a bombing.
This is not the end of it.
KUPRA
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 | 11:17 PM
im looking for this film
any one have film or
can you show me were i can download
please email me
Thank You
Jared
Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 | 01:00 AM
Matt, i disagree with you, namely because it is within the Muslim/Islam context to push that sort of behavior. If you have done any research into that religion you would realize that. That religion as much as they proclaim it is inclined to violence. Take a look at their end of times beliefs
They believe that their "Al Mahdi" will come and with the power of "Jesus Christ", who will likely be a false prophet, to destroy Christianity and Judaeism they will then take over the world and rule it for 7 years afterwhich their judgements will be decided
Their is no reason to believe that these people fully believing in what their Quran says are less likely to kill someone who has demonstrated a weakness in their philosophy.
Mamduh Shawqi
Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 | 07:49 AM
I'm also looking for this film, it was available on iFilm, but not anymore.
Al
Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2004 | 02:00 PM
yes ... I also believe that christian would not had caused murder if the film were aiming christian oppression.
Paul
Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2004 | 03:11 PM
I disagree Al.
I believe that most turmoil in the world is caused by religion....closely followed by oil.
Rex D.
Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2004 | 01:19 PM
Everyone here has great points about this subject, but the problem will always exist as long as we exist. Religion, human ignorance, arrogance, and psychologicaly disturbed individuals will never go away. It seems that just by being human, especially in and over populated world, your going to run into this every which way you turn. A utopian thing would be cool, but we could never have such a thing due to the human factor being present.
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